Parents Complain About Den Leader

[gtscouter]

I am a newly appointed Committee Chair and have immediately been hit with complaints about one of our Den Leaders. This leader happens to be a former cubmaster and a very active member of BSA in our area. He can be very abrasive. He recently confronted the boys (9-yr olds) directly about why they lacked the commitment to go on the upcoming pack camp out, for example. He didn't let the boys make S'mores at the spring camporee with the other den from our pack. These types of things upset both the boys and their parents. In addition, the parents tell me the den did not hold regular den meetings last year and held other meetings without 2-deep leadership. Overall the boys are not having fun at den meetings, but enjoy the rest of the Cub Scout program. I really want to keep the boys in the pack and move them on to Boy Scouts in '08. Right now the den has shrunk from 13 boys to 4 in the last two years. One family went so far to move their son to another pack. I talked to the Cubmaster about having a "sit down" with the Den Leader, but we're not sure what we're going to tell him! Anybody gone through this before??

[EagleInKY]

See if another adult in the den will step up. Then work on a co-leader scenario. Talk to the leader about how he appears to be stressed and you want to help him out, and that there's someone willing to share the load. If he responds negatively, you may have to take stronger methods. If he acts positive about it, you may be able to slide him out of the den role without causing a fuss.

 

Unfortunately, it hardly ever happens that easily. But it's what you can hope for.

 

Good luck.

[jr56]

The ideal situation would be to have a meeting with him and all the parents of the den.. Let him kbow the boys aren't having a good time, after all that's what its all about. Have one of the other parents step forward and volunteer to take over.

[gwd-scouter]

Without having all the facts in this situation it is difficult to respond. I do have a few questions, though.

 

If the parents are telling you that he did not hold regular den meetings last year and that there was not 2-deep leadership when meetings were held, have you asked those parents why they didn't step up to help him?

 

One family moved to another pack. Again, why didn't they offer to help?

 

He may have confronted the 9-year-olds about not having a commitment to the campout, and I agree that is not appropriate. But, could it be possible that he is just frustrated with the lack of commitment from the parents and is tired of being the babysitter in Babysitters of America?

 

 

[SemperParatus]

"the den has shrunk from 13 boys to 4 in the last two years"

 

The proof of the problem really is in the pudding. I suspect no other den in your pack has experienced a 70% decline over such a short period of time and yours is not a transient pack with people coming and going on a frequent basis.

 

Whatever the multitude of issues and complaints, the fact of the matter is that he is leading this den out of existence. I am sure he has plenty of answers to your questions and reasons for what he does and how he does them. It really does not matter what they are, the outcome of his den leadership has been woefully deficient. While there may be some legitimate dropouts due to families moving out of the area, it cannot be anywhere close to 9 out of 13. He has failed and you need to get a new den leader if you hope to salvage a scouting experience for the remaining boys.

 

 

[ScoutNut]

I agree, you need to get one of the complaining parents to step up as Den Leader.

 

Good Luck

 

One other thought, perhaps you, as CC, or your CM should contact all families who drop out to see why they are leaving. If you had done this the last 2 years, this problem could have been avoided.

[purcelce]

I'm with the crowd who says get the parents to step up if they don't like what's going on in this den. Or they can vote with their feet.

 

Again we don't have all the details.

[FScouter]

2-deep leadership is not required for den meetings. You're probably thinking of the "no 1 on 1 contact" rule.

[CA_Scouter]

You really gotta get rid of this guy. Based on your description of his abrasive personality, I suspect he will have a fit whether you handle this gently or not.

 

He's already upset nine other families enough for them to leave, so why be concerned about upsetting him?

 

I would not speak to him alone, I would get another committee member or two and have a short conference with him, say your piece, let him blow his stack for 5 minutes, then end the meeting.

 

 

[Sprocket]

Seems like it might be good to get your Chartered Organization Rep or some other experienced scouter involved in the meeting with the den leader. It would help to have someone else there who you know the den leader respects and whose opinion the den leader is less likely to ignore. This way he can't discount what you are telling him by saying he has more years of scouting experience, or whatever.

[Beavah]

Isolated things like not letting boys make s'mores are not worth gettin' your dander up over. As CC you should be supportin' the den leader on such nonsense.

 

I agree with Semper, though, yah? A den shrinkin' from 13 to 4 because of unhappy boys and families is the real issue. Some scouters belong at the boy scout or venturing levels; they don't have the personality or patience for dealin' with the younguns, no matter what their trainin' or years of experience. Maybe that's true here.

 

The thing that's missin' here is "What does your Cubmaster think?" Another thing that's missin' is whether the remaining four boys are the den leader's son and his best friends? (In other words making a "forced change" is as likely to lose you the last four kids as anything). It sounds like you have a second den for same-aged boys, because some are transferrin' out of this den without leavin' the pack? In that case, you might just want to gently make that available to the remaining families, in which case maybe he'll end up not being den leader by virtue of nobody left in his den. Problem solved, provided you give him some other job to keep him out of the way of the other den leader.

 

Yah, cubs is tough this way. Parent den leaders are all hit or miss, and yeh usually don't find out the door's open until all the cows are out of the barn. As new CC, remember in the future to actively pick and recruit people you really want for den leaders.

 

[gtscouter]

Here's an update. I agree that I am disappointed that the complaining parents don't/didn't approach the leader themselves. I don't want to create a mob scene, so I'm not going to have all parents get together. One parent is the Assistant Den Leader for this Den. So, I spoke to her and asked if she and her husband were open to contacting Den Leader and his wife for a "one on one". Suggested that she keep the conversation focused only on her son and his experiences with the Den. In this way it is not a "she said, he said" type of approach. Then the hope is that if the Leader gets feedback from the one set of parents, he might alter his approach and this would benefit the whole Den.

 

We will not get rid of this leader. As one of the posters said, he is probably better suited to working with Troop/Crew. This guy is a Silver Beaver award winner and the whole nine yards in Scouting. He's done a lot for our pack. Maybe he's just frustrated with this group. Or maybe he doesn't realize that not everyone is going to take Scouting as seriously as he does. That's something I run into from time to time in other Leaders too. I hope things improve. I am concerned that his attitude will turn boys away from moving on to our Troop. The Cubmaster (new this year too) and I are doing our best to reassure the parents.

 

Thanks for input so far.

 

I don't know if I used the "2 Deep" terminology correctly. I think, however, that one parent should not have the boys alone for a Den meeting, correct?? This is our usual Pack policy.

[ScoutNut]

"I don't know if I used the "2 Deep" terminology correctly. I think, however, that one parent should not have the boys alone for a Den meeting, correct??"

 

 

Actually, this is NOT National policy. This is individual UNIT policy ONLY (& not a bad one IMHO).

 

Youth Protection & the Guide to Safe Scouting, state that there must be 2-deep leadership for all OUTINGS. The general, everyday guideline is that there should be no 1-on-1 contact between an adult & a youth other than your own son.

 

At 13 boys, you could use at LEAST 1 other adult. Ideally, you should have split the den into 2 dens, each with a DL & ADL. With 4 boys, 1 adult is plenty, but 2 would be great.

 

BTW - the S'mores incident - Many people have a REAL problem with young boys flinging flaming chunks of marshmallows onto other people or into the surrounding environment. The dessert has been banned from numerous units that I know of. Perhaps your leader is one of the NO flaming chunks allowed variety (in that case he should have provided for an alt dessert).