Wedgies

[Crew21_Adv]

CNY,

 

Greetings!

 

If I may offer my own thoughts. (IMHO)

 

Was the CM smart? No

Was this hazing? Yes, I would concur.

Was this physical abuse? Yes

Was this emotional abuse? Id still say Yes, very low on the scale but meeting criteria.

Was this sexual abuse? No. From what I read, the CM did not further touch the 14 y/o CIT or was trying to obtain power over the youth.

 

In Scouting, there are no perfect leaders. Just leaders that may be near perfect, place the boys and their advancement as high goals. These leaders use the program to develop future adults with fitness, character and values. But still, none of them are perfect. The Committees just choose the best adult to serve at the Cubmaster, Scoutmaster or Advisor.

 

So CNYScouter asked, What should happen to this new CM?

 

(If I can borrowing from Eammons story telling style, thanks E..) A small and insignificant story which really struck me. It contains the benefits of honesty, accepting the blame and serving the punishment.

 

Not many years ago, but fairly recently. After the OJ Simpson trials a new cable network began. CourtTV. The only show on Court TV in the humble beginning, real traffic court. (How Exciting!)

 

One morning before I departed to work, I surfed over to the new CourtTV, a live traffic court show in California. Defendant after defendant were claiming innocence. It was a hilarious. A was in tear, laughing so hard at this defendants arguing with the Judge. The more they argued their innocence, the judge would impose 50 dollar, 100 dollar, 200 dollar fines.

 

Finally, a middle aged, mid income businessman approached the bench, his traffic citation was for Jay-walking in the downtown business district. The traffic court judge asked him how he pleaded. He said guilty. The judge had to ask him again. He said guilty again. He told the judge, he illegally crossed the major downtown road, the metropolitan cop saw him and issued a citation. The Jaw Jay-walking businessman admitted, he had no alibi, he was guilty as charged and ready to accept the financial punishment (fine) and move on.

 

The traffic court judge was stunned! The first guilty plea all day! The judge commended him for his honesty (first that day), gave the Jay-walking defendant a warning, cleared his traffic record and dismissed him without any fines.

 

Now, there is a large difference between a jay-walking businessman and a Cubmaster giving a teenaged youth a wedgie.

 

What should happen to this new CM?

 

Let me ask you (or your WB patrol buddy) Was this current CM the best adult for the job back in June? (Probably if the Committee asked him to be Cubmaster) Did this CM have a good record until this event? (I hope so)

 

In my opinion.. I would recommend the Committee reprimand him. Make sure he understand the Guide to Safe Scouting and renews his Youth Protection Guidelines training. And get back to a great Scouting year!

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

Figuring out if Wedgies crosses the line between child abuse, hazing or good old fashioned horseplay is quite the exercise in philosophical debate. I have to admit to seeing some humor there but then I also strongly disagree with it (Wedgies) on grounds that without a doubt it does not set a good example. The CM needs to ask himself, " Do I want the kids running around acting up and giving Wedgies to each other?" The Scouts need very little training in this area without someone bringing their extensive expertise to the table. The CM needs training regarding what is on the fun menu, such as songs, skits, run-ons, games, etc. which are generally entertainment enough. As for a punishment, I suggest taking him out behind the woodshed and retraining him.

 

Now then, where do Wet Willies fall on the scale, of course, just kidding. FB

[CNYScouter]

Early this week this Pack had a Committee Meeting.

The COR, UC and SE attended.

All sat quietly and said nothing.

My WB patrol member (the Ex-CM) couldnt understand if these people werent going to do anything why did they show up in the first place.

 

We all agree it's a problem.

Everyone on this forum clearly sees this is not a good situation and that it was a stupid and dumb thing to do. However the Pack Committee sees nothing wrong with the CMs actions.

 

da former CM needs to butt out of this entirely and stick to his role of supportin' da CM and program as den leader.

 

This is one option for the former CM, but not the most likely.

He is considering leaving this Pack and joining another.

I think that he was placed into a tough situation being the ex-CM and still involved in the program; the other upset parents were looking to him to help resolve this situation.

He did very thing training instructed him to do in a situation like this and these people failed to act.

 

But if no one does nothing -Nothing happens.

Nothing was done and something will happen.

 

It is up to the "More than one parent was upset over this" to take the action that they feel is needed.

The other parents will be taking the action they feel is needed they as they will be pulling their sons out of Cub Scouting.

This is one of the reasons the Ex-CM got involved as far as he did.

He grew this Pack from 8 Cubs to over 40 in 3 years and is now seeing come undone in less then 3 months.

 

Bad choices were made and the situation has been made worse by even more bad choices.

 

[evmori]

Wedgies, while funny, have no place in Scouting. The CM made a error in judgment in this case. If this hazing? Nope. Is this child abuse? Nope. Does this CM need to be drawn & quartered? Nope. What this CM needs is to be reminded this type of action isn't allowed.

 

I think it depends on how wet the Wet Willie is!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

Ed, if I grab the back of your skivies and pull them over the top of your head, you would be laughing?

[scoutldr]

Beav, thanks for the law lesson. I'll freely admit that I am not an attorney, and my comments are my opinion, based on a layman's understanding of the law. My opinions are also based on a recent seminar I attended on Workplace Violence conducted by a police officer. As a manager, I also am required to have annual training in Sexual Harrassment Prevention. My job also requires me to be able to read and comprehend laws and regulations and be able to translate them into practical applications. My wife is a school nurse and an "expert" in child abuse. I am approved by the Council to teach Youth Protection Training (as well as all other BSA Leadership training except Wood Badge).

 

I also admit that laws and customs may vary among jurisdictions and Councils. In my Council, this is reportable as a YP issue, no question.

 

Now what are your credentials?

[Eagledad]

>>However the Pack Committee sees nothing wrong with the CMs actions.

[Hunt]

I think more facts would be required about this incident before making any kind of judgment on what to do. What was the relationship between the CM and the CIT? What was the CIT's reaction to the threatened wedgie, both before and after it occurred? How much of a wedgie was it? I'm really not being facetious.

Possible scenario 1: CM really wanted to humiliate the CIT, the CIT resisted, both physically and verbally, CM did it anyway, and it hurt. Result: CM should be run out on a rail.

Possible scenario 2: CIT's boxers were protruding three inches above his pants, and CM--his next-door neighbor and almost like family--razzed him about it, and warned him he could get a wedgie that way. CIT jokingly egged CM on, and CM pulled on the exposed boxers in a way that didn't hurt. Result: still poor judgment in front of a bunch of Cubs, but a very different situation.

We don't know where in the spectrum the real incident was.

[Eamonn]

I should spin off but..

I have to own up to not thinking that everything is a Youth Protection issue.

I see the Youth Protection Training more as a way of protecting everyone than something that is going to swoop down and threaten leaders who may at times show poor judgment.

I really dislike being threatened.

I can think of several times when I have not complied with the guidelines.

Was it dumb on my part? You bet it was.

However I would never do anything that I thought would hurt or harm a youth.

I'm not a child abuser and would never molest anyone.

I have given the Lad who was left at camp a ride home in my car, when I was the only adult.

Sure I know that 20 years from now he could turn around and claim that I did something that I shouldn't.

I have gone to look after a little Lad standing in the bathroom in his underwear, vomiting and feeling really sick.

Sure I know that I should have gone and got another adult, but I was worried about the kid.

Sure I know that anyone seeing us both in the bathroom in our underwear looked bad.

Yes I have been awake at night and overheard going's on in tents that while normal, might be considered un-scout like. I choose not to take any notice.

I see youth protection more as Adult protection. Following the guidelines is my way of covering my tail.

When or if we start using it as a big stick it will do more harm than good.

I don't claim to have a hard and fast formula for what is and what isn't abuse.

The YP doesn't either.

But I know it when I see it.

The adult in this case made a stupid mistake.

Someone needs to talk to him about it.

Maybe that someone might also ask him to talk to the parents that are upset and let them know that he has made a stupid mistake and inform them that he isn't going to do it again.

From reading what has been posted, I don't see that he was trying to abuse the Lad.

While I now see that adults roughnecking or horse-playing with youth members is not the done thing, at one time I was guilty of it. What might be acceptable as playing with the kid next door is unacceptable in Scouting.

When we make everything a YP issue, we are in fact hurting the program and undoing the good that the YP Training has to offer.

(If this sounds like a rant? It's because I spent a week with a very annoying women at Philmont who tried to make everything into a YP issue.)

Eamonn.

Wedgies are common when Scouts are learning the Boatswain's Chair knot and using it.

 

 

[evmori]

Ed, if I grab the back of your skivvies and pull them over the top of your head, you would be laughing?

 

Actually, the last time I was on the receiving end of a wedgie, I did laugh!

 

Guess you stopped reading my post after that line, OGE.

 

Taking life too seriously will give you ulcers.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[gwd-scouter]

I am told that the pulling the underwear over the head-type wedgie is called an atomic wedgie.

[OldGreyEagle]

I guess there are two issues here. The first is the Cubmaster and the CIT and what does that mean. Abuse? Hazing? Sexual predatation? I think no in every case, an adult with a svere lapse of judgement? yes. It doesnt matter the adult and youth's relationship outside of scouting.

 

Say there is another youth and adult. They are neighbors and have gotten used to calling each other very unsavory names. The parents don't mind, actually they join in, its a neighborhood tradition to trash talk. Thats fine, but in scouts they can't call each other a pile of walking dog s*** no matter how innocent it is.

 

The biggest issue is the youth who watched the episode. What are their impressions of scouting? How much "fun" did they have, what behavior will they take away from the event? To me the example is much more an issue

[Eamonn]

OGE,

I'm in agreement with you.

I have spent a good many years on both sides of a bar. Over which time I have heard some of the not so clean jokes and not so clean stories. I have in my time retold a good number of them.

Even in the bar, I was mindful of who was in earshot. I wasn't going to tell a not so clean story or joke if there were people who it upset within earshot.

The last time I fought my way into OJ's room I noticed that the 101 Dalmatians Disney posters had been replaced with posters of females who while dressed certainly were not over-dressed. He had mentioned taking a poster to camp with him this summer!! I talked him out of it!

A lot of the stuff that Jay Leno does late night might be suitable for late night audiences, but would not be the correct thing for family viewing.

While many of us might do stuff outside of Scouts and Scouting which might not be very Scout-like, once we are with youth members or being known as Scouts (In or out of uniform) we need to use our "Scouting Manners".

This is one reason I don't have any BSA or Scouting stickers on any of the cars!!

Eamonn.

[CalicoPenn]

Doing nothing is not an option. At the very least, the CM should have been told that parents who saw or heard about this were upset by this action. It may have been an unintended lapse in judgement, perhaps brought on by a familiarity with his neighbor, but it was still an action that should not have taken place. It was the correct course of action to notify the SA, and perhaps he sat in on the meeting not doing anything to see how the CO and Unit would handle the issue.

 

In school situations, giving wedgies is considered a form of hazing and/or bullying. It is no longer acceptable.

 

Had this taken place in a public park and was witnessed by a police officer, in most jurisdictions, the CM would have found himself being taken away in handcuffs in front of the Cubs, even if the 14-year old protested that it was just a goof. This is an adult assaulting a minor, whether charges are pressed or not, and even if done "in a spirit of fun". A 14-year old boy can't consent to being assaulted, and neither can his parents. If witnessed by a police officer, no complaint by the boy or his parents need to be filed - the police officer becomes the complainant.

 

Talk to the CM, if he is trained and responsible, he will admit to his error and apologize to the adults promising to be more thoughtful in the future. If he becomes defensive, watch him closely.

 

CalicoPenn

[Aquila calva]

Thursday (yesterday) morning it was reported there had been a Pack committee meeting earlier in the week. Those attending included the Chartered Organization Rep., the Unit Commissioner and the Scout Executive. Who else was there? The Cubmaster should have been there along with the Committee Chair and all the other committee members (as described in the committee handbook). If parents had registered their complaints with the Committee Chair then he/she could have put the issue on the meeting agenda or brought it up as an oh, by the way. Any concerned parent also could have asked to address the committee about this issue. The Cubmaster should have heard the discussion and offered his comments.

 

If there was a committee meeting with all these lofty-positioned people in attendance and the Cubmaster wasnt there, then the Pack has other problems in addition to Wedgies. Those other problems may be the real reasons the former CM is considering leaving the Pack. He is now the Webelos 2 den leader and may well be leaving in a few months, in any case. Hopefully, he will be transitioning to a troop along with all the Webelos, who now know that giving wedgies is inappropriate behavior.

 

We cant do everything, but we can do something.