why is scouting shrinking? visit www.savescouting.org

[brianbuf]

(untoward unscoutlike remarks towards a fellow forum member OGE)

 

If we are going to get picky, benifit is spelled benefit. But let's not. B.P., Lord B.P., Baden-Powell, or (name of no one associated with scouting OGE) I'll use them all with upfront apologies.

 

So here is a new twist for all of you, perhaps it should be a new thread.

 

If Lord B.P. lived today (100 years later than he really did), and just came back from a military campaign, say in Iraq, and decided to start an organization to train boys, what would it look like?

 

In other words, if B.P. started scouting in 2006 what would it be like? From uniforms to merit badges to patrol method to national and world organization to icons and patrol names? Anyone dare to speculate?

 

I would say it would be different in many ways from what we have in the BSA today. The icons would be modern, the uniform modern, merit badges like skateboarding and gaming and rollerblading would be there, etc.

 

What do you think Scouting would look like if it was started in 2006? (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Gonzo1]

Brian,

BSA has made many changes over the years. however, change happens slowly.

 

Part of what makes Boy Scouts fun today is that some of it is different. We even have our own jargon. We don't use an outhouse, we use the latrine or KYBO. We use the Patrol Method not small buzz groups. Personally, I wish we had the green shirt and green pants. The older uniform in the 70's had smaller collars, fit well, didn't become untucked when lifting the arms and the current epaulettes are silly. I prefer patches (patrol and office) with collored backgrouds), but hey, that's just me.

 

I suggest to really jazz things up, yu join forces with Merlyn_LeRoy and improve the scouting for all movement. They are a group of people dissatisfied with BSA, they formed their own splinter group. They have lots of gays, girls and atheists and I bet the rainbow colors should spice things up for yu.

 

good luck.

 

 

[brianbuf]

"suggest to really jazz things up, yu join forces with Merlyn_LeRoy and improve the scouting for all movement. They are a group of people dissatisfied with BSA, they formed their own splinter group. They have lots of gays, girls and atheists and I bet the rainbow colors should spice things up for yu. "

 

Cute, but I have never said we should turn away from the values of scouting. These people you mentioned are not what I am talking about.

 

But nice dodge... the question remains, if BP had started scouting in 2006, what would it look like?

 

 

 

[evmori]

If BP had started scouting in 2006, what would it look like?

 

It would look a lot different then it does now.

 

But here's the rub, Scouting started almost 100 years ago. There is no way to compare what anything started in 1910 vs something started 2006.

 

So your question really gets nowhere. Sorta like your web site!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Miki101]

That's a rather odd question.

 

BP's experiences were formed by Victorian politics. His fame was generated by a style of warfare that is not fought anymore. I'm not sure that anyone alive today could garner the world's attention like he did in 1907 to start a youth organization on the lines of Scouting. Therefore, the question is based in the wrong century and, therefore, we probably would not have Scouting as we know it.

 

David C. Scott

 

[BrentAllen]

Ed is on the right track. I would argue Scouting is successful today BECAUSE of its history, instead of IN SPITE of it, as brian would argue.

 

If Scouting were started today, it would not get off the ground. The kids would be too involved with sports or band or chess club or u-name-it to join some new camping group. The idea that they would join some new organization to teach them values and ethics in today's world is a bit unrealistic, IMHO. The history, the tradition, the respect earned by those who have worn the Scout uniform have made Scouting what it is today. Without the tradition and history, who today would buy into the new thought that spending years going camping and earning these new things called merit badges, in order to earn some new badge called Eagle, would be worth the effort? The perceived value of Scouting comes from its history and the respect earned by the members over the last 100 years.

 

Unfortunately, IMHO, brian doesn't realize what an amazing gift it was that B-P gave us. He thinks it can be recreated by just coming up with some snazzy new images. If brian were to think about it, he would be amazed at how long Scouting has lasted, and would maybe look at the reasons for the long-term success. We don't offer dads images of their son making the bigs (Little League) or winning the Super Bowl. We offer a game with a purpose, an opportunity for boys to become men and leaders. It is a simple program that will probably appeal to fewer and fewer boys and dads in the increasinlgy "get ahead at any cost" world. That is society, unfortunately. Me, I would prefer a smaller program that was meaningful, instead of a watered-down, please-the-cool-crowd program that offered no substance, other than to say we had a lot of members.

[Crew21_Adv]

Greetings Fellow Scouters,

 

Again if I can offer a few opinions.

Brian asked the question if Lord Baden Powell lived in the current era, and started the Scouting Program today. Not a very close comparison, but BP was an icon for the time, similar to just a couple of current icons, Stan Lee of Marvel Comics or NBAs Michael Jordan, (there are more of course). That is why BP was heard.

 

Recently, I sat an Eagle Board of Review. I usually dialogue with the candidate, and offer my response after their answer. One of my questions was, why did Lord Baden Powell begin Scouting? And lets not leave it all up to Baden Powell, but the rest of our Legacy, William Boyce, Ernest T Seton, and Daniel Carter Beard.

 

In economics class we find there is supply and demand. In history we find there is a cause and effect (also in physics). In ethics we usually find there is a need and a resolution.

 

In 1900, there was a need to build character and citizenship and physical fitness in youth. Why, because many British youth (and youth worldwide) were lacking in character. (Sorry Eamonn) With the industrial revolution and economic changes, parents were working longer hours in the factories, school truancy was on the rise, and street urchins or runaways were often on the streets of London (New York, Chicago and many large capitols around the world, even today) left to fend for themselves. Probably an ugly history, but there was a need to build character. The solution, there were many offers, military schools, boarding schools, state orphanages, to include the new Scouting, Woodcraft Indians, and Sons of Daniel Boone. Other countries seemed to enjoy similar solutions, to resolve nearly identical needs, and Scouting swept the world. Scouting never promised to save the world, but for nearly 100 years, it has improved character and citizenship and has had a positive impact worldwide.

 

My next EBOR question(s). Do we have those same needs today? To build character and citizenship, in youth? Does Scouting do that? With some dialogue with the candidate the answer is always, yes, Scouting still brings some resolution to building character and citizenship.

 

 

Regarding Merit Badges, As I said before, with safety being in mind. I would expect more adventurous and attractive merit badge being added yearly, after ensuring the merit badge is safe. Brianbuf, you commented about rollerblading, if you took a look at Skating Merit Badge requirements pamphlets, you should find the BSA allows inline skating (it is just not called rollerblading as you stated). As far as gaming merit badge, other than hand eye coordination, I do not see much value added to building character, citizenship or physical fitness.

 

Regarding Scouting in other countries. There are some Scouting programs with Merit Badges/Proficiency Badges and Ranks. Nearly all of these merit badges solve the need of introduction to physical fitness (sports and recreational hobbies), or introduction into possible career paths. However, in some other countries and Scouting programs they offer only an outdoors program with only two recognitions, usually along the lines of beginner camper and Pathfinder or experienced camper. Many times their ranks are recognized by the colors of their neckerchiefs. Having said that, while Brians limited surveys seem to illustrate the neckerchiefs are old fashioned. In other countries, they proudly wear their neckerchiefs, to demonstrate their proficiency and ranking in their program. No kidding, you will see more neckerchiefs in the various international Scouting programs, than in the BSA. Not every country, but I would definitely say those with neckerchiefs are very proud of their status being worn around their neck and on top of their shirt. They will wear the neckerchief with uniform shirt, T-shirt or long-sleeve sweatshirt.

 

Regarding uniforms. I have met Scouts around the world, some uniforms are very comparable to the BSA uniforms, some uniforms are very awkward and IMHO tacky (making BSA uniforms very appealing), and some are very simple and effective. I admire the Australian Scouts Associations uniforms, dark blue uniform shirts, with their program level on their shoulders, and just a few patches placed only on their sleeves. (hmmm, Maybe I should join the ASA, just so I can wear their uniform.) In nearly all Scouting programs world wide you will find uniforms. IHMO our BSA uniforms are effective, especially for ceremonies and special events. Maybe even bring back our red berets. Even the French Scouts still wear their berets. But I dont see a reason for an immediate and dramatic change to our BSA uniforms.

 

Regarding patrols. I feel the old saying is true, Too many cooks spoil the broth. At work I have walked away from large committees and large work groups. Granted a small work committee should work so solve the needs of the customer. But when some work resolutions get bogged down in debate, during large committee meetings and never solve a need; I feel like I should quit work and run for the U.S. Congress. (jokingly) Whoever thought of this Den and Patrol method is a downright genius!! They should teach his methods at conventions and seminars from New York to Los Angeles!! The Patrol method is the cutting edge of youth leadership.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

 

[ScoutNut]

Per Brian's question on what Scouting would look like if it was started in 2006, I think David & Brian got it right. You could NOT have a B-P in today's society.

 

He was a product of his time. The right man, in the right place, at the right time, with the right idea. He caught the imagination, & heart, of a WORLD. Not just 1 town, county, or even country, but the whole world! His "dorky" ideas, songs, uniforms & activities, sparked, NOT ONE (1), but TWO (2) WORLDWIDE Scouting Movements!!

 

I don't think there is ANYONE today that could recreate that. Certainly not with one badly written web site.

 

If you want to see modern attempts to duplicate, and/or improve on B-P's work, they are out there. Scouting For All is only one. They have nowhere near the membership BSA does, much less a chance of growing to be world organizations. That should tell you something about the strength of B-P's vision.

 

BSA HAS changed over the last 100 years. BSA will CONTINUE to change. The changes will NOT be quick & glitzy, but they WILL be carefully thought out to fit in with B-P's vision.

 

BTW Brian, you stated - "merit badges like skateboarding and gaming and rollerblading would be there". I can only assume you have not kept up with the changes BSA has made to it's Merit Badge program.

 

[SR540Beaver]

Brian,

 

Instead of reinventing the successful model of scouting, perhaps you should take a look at alternative programs that might be more to your liking. They are fine programs, but have never met with the same levels of success that scouting has. All are youth programs of the different branches of the US military. They are coed and the youth wear actual military uniforms. They have educational programs akin to merit badges, summer experiences akin to going to summer camp, meetings akin to troop meetings and rank advancement.

 

Civil Air Patrol

 

http://www.cap.gov/

 

Mission Statement

 

To serve America by performing Homeland Security and humanitarian missions for our communities, states, and nation; developing our countrys youth; and educating our citizens on the importance of air and space power.

 

Young Marines

 

http://www.youngmarines.com/

 

Mission Statement

 

The mission of the Young Marines is to positively impact America's future by providing quality youth development programs for boys and girls that nurtures and develops its members into responsible citizens who enjoy and promote a healthy, drug-free lifestyle.

 

Motto

 

Strengthening the lives of America's youth.

 

Young Marine Obligation

 

From this day forward, I sincerely promise, I will set an example for all other youth to follow and I shall never do anything that would bring disgrace or dishonor upon God, my Country and its flag, my parents, myself or the Young Marines. These I will honor and respect in a manner that will reflect credit upon them and myself. Semper Fidelis.

 

Young Marine Creed

 

1. Obey my parents and all others in charge of me whether young or old.

2. Keep myself neat at all times without other people telling me to.

3. Keep myself clean in mind by attending the church of my faith.

4. Keep my mind alert to learn in school, at home or at play.

5. Remember having self-discipline will enable me to control my body and mind in case of an emergency.

 

Sea Cadets

 

http://www.seacadets.org/public/

 

Mission Statement

 

"...through organization and cooperation with the Department of the Navy, to encourage and aid American youth to develop, train them in seagoing skills, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance and kindred virtues."

 

 

 

[emb021]

brianbuf asks: "if BP had started scouting in 2006, what would it look like?"

 

Well, this is why I recommended that you read Hillcourt bio of B-P, and read B-P's 2 main books on scouting: Scouting for Boys and Aids to Scoutmastership. You would, maybe, understand what scouting is. And is not.

 

(I also recommend you get a copy of a book called "Last Child in the Woods").

 

Scouting was never created to be a fad or to tie in with the latest crazy. A lot of your nonsense is along those lines. Scouting was never about that.

 

While B-P was a military man, is was a very unusual one. He got his commission by basically cramming for and getting a very good score on something similiar to an SAT test. He was a poor student, but loved the out of doors, was artistic and all the rest. Summer vacation for him was to go on weeks-long boating/camping trips with his older brothers. While in the military, his R&R was to go camping.

 

He developed "scouting" while in the military. It was very radical and totally unlike military training. It was all about getting small groups of people to work together AND to make individuals think and work things out for themselves. The total opposite of most military training of drilling and marching and the like.

 

He did not think that military training was appropriate for children, so he converted his military scouting program to a program for youth. He spent time looking at other programs that existed, and took inspiration from older concepts (his Rover program for 18-25 'youth' took its inspiration from the Knights of old).

 

His scouting uniform was NOT based on military uniforms, but the comfortable outdoors clothing that he prefered to wear as a scout and on his camping trips. That neckerchief that you so seem to hate had a useful purpose: keeping the sun of your neck. He got that idea from American cowboys and frontiersmen. The broadbrimmed hat, which for many of us we think of drill instructors or highway troops, was just a wide brimmed hat that the cowboys and frontiermen would wear. Thus, and '21st century scouting' program would base their uniform on the practical outdoor clothing worn by campers and outdoors people, what you'd see in REI, Campmor, Cabela's, Bass Pro Shop, etc. NOT base on military BDUs, hunter camo or the like.

 

Camping would still be important. Read that book I mentioned, "Last Child in the Woods". Even in B-Ps time doing this was radical. Most people were rapidly moving to an urban environment, loosing thier connection with nature. This is still true today.

 

There are a lot of other programs out there that I think a "21st Century Scouting" program would take its que from. Outward Bound, Project Adventure, National Outdoor Leadership School, the whole 'experiental education' movement. I think many of them really have their roots in scouting.

 

And I don't think you will see merit badges about "skateboarding and gaming and rollerblading". Merit badges were never about flashy fads, but about getting competent in life skills.

 

I say this again: educate yourself about what scouting is. Please stop coming here and wasting our time and getting us to do the job for you. I've given you 4 books you need to obtain and read.

 

 

 

[SemperParatus]

"if B.P. started scouting in 2006 what would it be like?"

 

I'll play some

 

 

PRESS RELEASE OF THE FLEDGLING SCOUTING MOVEMENT:

Mr. Powell is pleased to announce his plans to conduct an experiment in youth character development by assembling a group of 22 boys to spend a week camping with him at Brownsea Island. This 'camp-out' is intended to put into practice Mr. Powell's ideas of outdoor education and scoutcraft in building citizenship and character for the boys of today and the men of tomorrow. Mr. Powell notes that, the most important object in Boy Scout training is to educate, not instruct and the sport in Scouting is to find the good in every boy and develop it. The outdoor experience is needed in Mr. Powells opinion, as more and more boys are sitting on couches playing video games and watching hour after hour of television. We look forward to this opportunity and reporting back on the wonderful results that are expected.

 

PRESS RELEASE OF NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION:

Mr. Powell's 'experiment' is doomed to failure. How dare he suggest that he is an educator. We have worked much too long and hard in creating our stellar public education system in this country, only to see an interloper, like Mr. Powell, come along and claim he knows a better way. For over a century, public education has proven that the best way to educate is to force participation, continue improving curriculums so that all students achieve equal results and constantly remind students and parents that we know what is best for them. Mr. Powell, the writing is on the blackboard. You cannot educate our youth outside of a multi-million dollar facility that offers free lunches, after-school care and ensures our jobs and pensions.

 

PRESS RELEASE OF THE NATIONAL ORGANIZATION OF WOMEN:

Mr. Powell is obviously a male chauvinist pig. His exclusion of the superior female gender from his little 'boys club' is just another example of the unending bondage that we have been subjected to at the hands of this neanderthal race that has been the scourge of our planet since the Venusians kicked them out of our estrogenical utopia. There will be a bra-burning vigil throughout the week as a sign of solidarity against the further indoctrination of this foul species.

 

PRESS RELEASE OF AMERICAN BAR ASSOCIATION:

We certainly don't know what Mr. Powell intends to do on that island. But, we will be following the developments very closely. We plan to have a cadre of lawyers standing at the ready to assist the families of these boys as they are placed in dangers too numerous to mention. Rumor has it that Mr. Powell intends for these possible victims to sleep in tents, which could discriminate against those who may be convinced that they suffer from agoraphobia. Likewise, it has been suggested that a fire may be set to keep warm, in spite of local ordinances controlling such outrageous behavior. A class-action lawsuit has already drafted and is ready to be filed. We care about these boys and their rights. So, we have made a special arrangement with our members to handle these cases on a 40% contingency basis.

 

PRESS RELEASE OF GREENPEACE:

We are told from a very reliable source that Brownsea Island was once the home of the red-beeked snipe and that this rare species may, in fact, return to the island in the next four centuries. Mr. Powell's 'experiment' will forever contaminate this land and ensure that the red-beeked snipe will never ever ever return. We have scientific studies that prove this. He must be stopped. We owe that to all the now and future red-beeked snipes of the world.

 

PRESS RELEASE OF THE ACLU:

As the defenders of the constitutional rights of all we deem worthy, we will make it our sole mission to attack and destroy Mr. Powell and his boys until his ideas are forever banished in the scrap heap of independent thinking. We alone determine what can be thought, said and acted upon so as not to offend our acute sense of righteousness. We declare war on this idea of scouting and will use our tax-exempt status to the fullest extent to crush this idea that is offensive to our self-given rights.

 

PRESS RELEASE OF NAMBLA:

We wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Powells movement. In fact, we are planning to be the number one sponsor of boy scouts. We just love the idea.

 

*****

 

A start-up boy scouting movement wouldnt stand a chance today. Fortunately, its 100 year track record of success is too strong for anyone to believe its naysayers.

 

 

 

[gwd-scouter]

Thanks, Semper, for giving me the best laugh I've had all day!

 

 

[Miki101]

At-a-boy Semper. You nailed it.

[brianbuf]

Interesting information. Although there seems to be about 5 or 6 posters that post over and over and over on this thread, I sense that most feel like a Scouting movement would not get off the ground if one was started in 2006. Is that the feeling?

 

On another note, Emb012 wrote:

 

"Please stop coming here and wasting our time and getting us to do the job for you. I've given you 4 books you need to obtain and read"

 

No one is wasting your time but you (if you feel like you are.) Simply stop reading this thread if you feel it is a waste.

[CNYScouter]

To get back on the topic of why is scouting shrinking?

 

I am in a council that has seen a membership decrease from 8100 in 2000 to 6100 in 2006 with the number of units decreasing from 427 to 310 in the same period.

 

I asked one of the long-time district level Scouters what he thought the reasons were for this decline.

 

The reason that he gave me for this decrease are:

 

Decreasing population in our councils service area.

 

Insufficient emphasis on membership recruitment especially in the Cub Scout programs.

 

Many other youth activities that compete with the BSA.

 

Staff and budget cuts due to decreased revenues.

 

Negative media coverage.

 

As far as the Scouting program being out of date I or irrelevant to todays youth, I dont agree.

 

Take a look at the last Scouter Magazine.

The troop that had its 400th consecutive month of camping is in my council.

They are in a community of 350 yet have over 40 scouts in the troop. They draw kids form all the surrounding communities.

I know of another troop in another small community a little farther north from them. They have 80+ scouts.

 

Neither of these Troops has any problem recruiting boys or leaders into their program even facing the challenges outlined above.

 

They are doing nothing magical or special nor are they doing anything that most other units cant do.

All they are doing is running a good Scout program.

 

This shows me that the Scouting program is still relevant and the youth of today will join if you make your program fun and challenging.