why is scouting shrinking? visit www.savescouting.org

[Aquila calva]

Shrinking? A little.

 

Changing? A lot.

 

The changes are called Learning for Life and Exploring.

[campcrafter]

 

First off I want to mak clear I mean no offense to Brian - I do not know you and can only respond to what I read.

 

BUT Brian has the same "tone" as many who have joined this forum wanting to "SAVE SCOUTING" from itself have had, and at first I thought it might be one of those persons come back. I'm still not sure.

 

Brian you say you were recruited and sent to WB in what sounds like a very short time period and have been stunned by the declining numbers in Scouting. Do you not think that others who have been around for years have seen this "problem" and are trying to address it? Certainly in a more scientific way than the based on the few observations you have made.

 

I think we make too much of the numbers and look at quantity instead of quality. A quality program will attract more boys, we have all said this. A quality program can only be delivered by dedicated leaders who know what they are doing. The training will help but just like reading a diet book won't make me lose weight, just attending the training does not make one a leader. We have few real leaders. Fortunate for us on the forum many in the program share here.

 

Finally in my opinion and just that, BSA will never be what it was in the 50's and 60's not because we aren't doing it right - but the whole dynamic of our society has changed. Look at men's fraternal oraganizations, they are not what they used to be either. Do you think it is becasue they have dorky meetings at restaurants or silly names like Elks, Lions and Kiwanis ( what does that word mean?)

 

 

If we deliver a quality program to those boys interested on a local level - we will have done our best to make a difference.

 

JOSO,

campcrafter

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

- but the whole dynamic of our society has changed. Look at men's fraternal oraganizations, they are not what they used to be either. Do you think it is becasue they have dorky meetings at restaurants or silly names like Elks, Lions and Kiwanis ( what does that word mean?)

 

Yah, exactly. The dynamic of our society has changed. Kids get it, we Elks don't. So we may need to adjust, and even lose our quaint animal names to keep on with our real purpose (I ustah be a Beavah, I'm still an Elk, but I doubt the kids care a bit). Our purpose begins with meetin' kids where they're at.

 

Eagledad's data and thoughts are good, eh? What other changes have we seen in society?

 

Two working parents. Therefore, less time for parent volunteerism, but more cash for "things" and activities.

 

More focused work at younger ages. Desire from kids to work hard and get good at stuff, rather than dabble part-time. Sports, bands with regular practice schedules over "drop in" activities. I recognized Chippewa's quote in many scouts I've seen - "Scouting is enough to be a burden, not enough to be a commitment."

 

Kids love to engage with individual sports and challenges. Whether it's a video game or tryin' to grind a rail, they'll practice on their own 'til they're black and blue and make the next level.

 

American kids don't sing anymore, and animal stories are for kindergarten.

 

Of course, all the deep truths about boys and adult mentoring remain, but our trappings and organization may need to adjust, eh?

[brianbuf]

No offence meant back, but isn't "BE PREPARED" part of scouting?

 

Campcrafter wrote "Brian you say you were recruited and sent to WB in what sounds like a very short time period and have been stunned by the declining numbers in Scouting. Do you not think that others who have been around for years have seen this "problem" and are trying to address it? Certainly in a more scientific way than the based on the few observations you have made."

 

Please post after you are a little more prepared next time.

 

It is obvious you did not read or understand my website. The stats were from the BSA's own website 2005 v 2004, not from "a few observations you have made." It is about as "scientific" as it gets.. actual enrolment numbers direct from the BSA in Irving Texas. I have not seen 1 in 20 units actually close up in 1 year, rather, it is their stat. I did not see 10.9% drop of the nationwide enrolment in venturing in a single year, the BSA published it.

 

So no, it is not me sitting around watching a local boy drop out. It is the data, provided via a link on my website, that is why I am so concerned and hence, my 4th ticket for Woodbadge (or did you miss that also?)

 

Scouting, in my opinion, needs an overhaul. And it may be uncomfortable for the established long time leaders. That is ok, Scouting is about the boys, not the leaders. We would do well to remember that.

 

 

 

 

 

[campcrafter]

Brian wrote:

Please post after you are a little more prepared next time.

 

Brian,

In reading your web site you link and mention some statistical numbers from the BSA web site.

 

Other than that, as shown by your TOC below, everything else is your opinion. No it is not scientific. You do not try to expain what the numbers on the BSA site really mean.

 

TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

THE BOY SCOUT ORGANIZATION IS IN TROUBLE, REALLY!!

 

COMMON MYTHS OF WHY WE LOOSE BOYS.. AND IT IS NOT PERFUME AND GAS FUMES! Actually Brian the "Older Boy" Problem has been there since day one. Check BSA's Venturing web site.

 

Also on that page you write:

The kids are not interested in Scouting. Actually, this is not a myth. Sitting around a campfire singing nursery rhymes that ended up being thrown out the window, the window, the second story window. does not resonate with most middle of the road 13-18 year old boys. Some will disagree, but I have a 10.9% one year decrease in enrolment to help substantiate my hypothesis here. No offense meant to those who love the cheers. Most of the youth don't, in my experience.

 

What evidence do you have that shows this drop is due to sing around a campfire?

You say that this "hypothesis" is based on your experience. How much experience is that? So show us your data.

 

I never remember singing nursery rhymes around a campfire. My expereince is boys love to sing - realy gross silly songs. I hypothesize that is what leads many boys to join scouts.

 

 

MY IDEAS TO SAVE SCOUTING

 

WHAT YOU CAN DO TO HELP

 

FORUMS ON THE WEB

 

CONTACT ME

 

BACK TO THE HOME PAGE

 

I am not one of the good old boys in Scouting. I am for making the program exciting for the boys. Unfortunately few boys "receive the promise." If more people would worry about their own program then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

What are you doing as a Scouter in YOUR unit to make it more attractive to boys. It is actually a very flexible program.

 

You wrote on your web page:

Scouting, in my opinion, needs an overhaul. And it may be uncomfortable for the established long time leaders. That is ok, Scouting is about the boys, not the leaders. We would do well to remember that.

 

Your opinion you admit. I will admit that many Scouters are not "my kind of people" and are in it more for themselves than the boys. Scouting IS about the boys and those who work to provide a good program know that, and know boys, and their units are healthy because of it.

 

Actually my tenure as a volunteer is quite short - less than 10 years and most of that in Cubs. However do not lump all "old-timers" who think the program is working into some group of old-fashioned, ignorant dinosaurs.

 

 

Finally Brian, as has been mentioned before on thread such as this, if you don't like this program and your son thinks it's dorky, why are you wasting your time? Why not start a new program based on your ideas. B-P did.

 

Do you mind telling us a little more about yourself?

 

Were you a Scout as a boy?

How long have you been a volunteer Scouter?

You were asked to lead the "Venture part of the troop but to be the leader as well over all the other adult leaders." Please explain. Are you the CC or COR?

 

YIS,

cc

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by campcrafter)

[GernBlansten]

I commend Brian for identifying a problem and making suggestions for how to resolve it. I don't think much of what he recommends will change the tide though. To most kids I come across, scouts is like riding a moped. Its real fun until your friends catch you doing it.

 

This thread has made me think why my son likes scouting and why I support him.

 

Why is my son a scout and why am I a scouter?

 

Is it the uniform? No, Scouts is perceived by the majority of youth as a dorky activity. The uniform doesn't help this. Updating the uniform won't solve this. Uniforming is just dorky to most kids, at least uniforms designed and enforced by adults.

 

Is it the religious component? No, I think the religious aspect of scouting is too broad to be a meaningful substitution to specific denominational youth groups.

 

Is it the character development? No, that comes from the parents. Scouting just re-enforces it. Reciting the Scout Law and Oath once a week will not turn an immoral individual into a moral one.

 

Is it the leadership component? No, I think leaders are born not made. Scouting gives a great opportunity to youth who want to polish and develop their leadership skills, but I doubt that is the reason many scouts are scouts. Most scouts avoid high profile leadership positions in our troop.

 

Is it the adult interaction? No, every youth organization has adult interaction. Great scouters can become lifelong friends of scouts. Coaches also develop strong ties to their athletes. Music teachers to their musicians. Scouting doesn't have a corner in this area.

 

Is it the merit badges? No, most scouts do the very minimum required to advance. Very few take advantage of the opportunities to learn diverse and new stuff.

 

Is it the adventure? BINGO! That's what draws my son and myself to the program. No other youth group in our region offers as much adventure as scouting. Without scouting, I would not be camping with my son every month. We would not have canoed in the wilderness for a week. We would not have slept in a snow cave. We would not be training right now for my 10 day Philmont trek next summer. My son at 13, has more outdoor skills than most Americans today. In the three years we've been in scouting, we have almost 100 nights camping. He has as much at 13 as I did at 39. I talk to scouts and ask them why they are scouts. The answer is always the camping, not the other aspects.

 

Think about the stereotypical Boy Scout. Self sufficient, independent, able to take care of himself, always prepared. Those come from camping, not meetings.

 

If anything, I think the decline of scouts is due to a de-emphasis on outdoor adventure and an emphasis on social conservatism and leadership. Most boys just ain't interested in that.

 

Good on ya Brian, keep the ideas coming.

 

 

[emb021]

"It is obvious you did not read or understand my website. The stats were from the BSA's own website 2005 v 2004, not from "a few observations you have made." It is about as "scientific" as it gets.. actual enrolment numbers direct from the BSA in Irving Texas."

 

brianbuf- No one is disputing the numbers. The point that campcraft was making (and which I have made) is *have you identified the cause*? You can't come up with a solution until you know what the cause is. And several of us don't believe you have done so.

 

I myself tried to get a discussion going on one of the Venturing lists regarding the CAUSES (ie, not coming up with solutions per say) as to the drop in Venturing numbers. Which I know that people at the National level ARE looking at.

 

So please don't assume we are ignoring the drop in numbers. Its being address at several layers. Most of us feel the solution is delivering the promise of scouting. Too many units fail to do so. This is why many of them go under (or at best, just lose membership). Just changing elements you think is outdated/dorky isn't the right approach. I can tell you as a former scout, it was the adventure of scouting that kept me in. Not wanting to wear my uniform to school or wear a neckerchief or not liking the socks were not reasons for missing out on the great times I had in scouting. I earned the merit badges I wanted to earn.

 

 

"Look at men's fraternal oraganizations, they are not what they used to be either. Do you think it is becasue they have dorky meetings at restaurants or silly names like Elks, Lions and Kiwanis ( what does that word mean?)"

 

I have no idea about those groups, but I can tell you that there has been recent discussion in the Toastmasters magazine about changing the name of the organization. TM is a group of men and women dedicated to improving their abilities as public speakers and leaders, but the term 'toastmaster' bring to mind other concepts. So some feel we should change the name to increase our numbers.

 

[Beavah]

Just changing elements you think is outdated/dorky isn't the right approach. I can tell you as a former scout, it was the adventure of scouting that kept me in.

 

Adventure. Yah, that's it!

 

That's our market.

 

So if that's our market, the Oscar uniform has got to go. It doesn't say "adventure".

 

Pulp and Paper MB might have to give way to Ice Climbing or Sea Kayaking MB.

 

Timeless Values should be more like Adventure Teamwork. Besides, who wants a motto with an acronym "TV" when we're talking about active adventure?

 

Weekly meetings should be shot in favor of activities and practices. What's adventurous about a meeting when you could be out mountain bikin' with your friends?

 

The uniform, MB's and TV aren't the cause, they are symptoms. But one way to help us address the cause is by takin' a good look at how we portray ourselves, and treating the symptoms as we work our way back to the cause.

[Aidan_MacAnBhaird]

This thread has been very interesting indeed; however, what is the next step? Many have noticed components which may be causing a decline in our numbers, but how will we address these components, prioritize validated decline-causing components, and simultaneously address cubs, scouts, venturers, their leaders, and committees that need overhauling or re-training?

 

I would love to know the region and socio-economic stats of each of the people who posted. This became apparent to me after moving cross-country. The problems I saw in Dallas' country clubs had to do with city slickers and the career-driven, highly transient lifestyle of the adults. The highly rural eastern area I live in now has the same number problem, but completely different reasons.

 

A one size-fits all approach will not work for BSA because this country is too diverse across its regions; yet, like the heritage of Scouts, there are some significant "truths" which can be the foundations of making scouting exceptional across the board.

 

Gern makes a good point about the adventure aspect of scouting. The troops I see sticking to the scout plan, with youth run meetings accomplishing set goals to enable better adventure are not all doing poorly. However, their numbers suffer when the troop becomes a "fiefdom" to some adults, alienating parents, and having groups of boys treated as either "in crowd" or "out crowd".

 

Conversely, the troops I see that dismiss the scout plan as bunk or too difficult lose the 11-12 year old group the fastest due to boredom. These often started with or have developed a "fiefdom" component, or the adults would not be sticking together in their disdain for the proven process. These boys are usually in the worst scenario. They receive no leadership training because the adults do not implement the program. They have lacking outdoor skills because often these same adults think that component is too hard.

 

Contrary to Gern's belief, BSA is ripe with examples of leaders who were made, not born. That is what we are giving to these boys, an opportunity to step out of their comfort zone by absorbing their attention so greatly they do not realize how far outside that zone they have stepped.

 

The meetings need to be in place in order to gain the experience and organization needed to accomplish adventurous goals. The patrol method works, and works well in keeping the older youth doing something other than teaching the younger youth. And thank you to each and every person who stated adults need to get out of the way, step to the background, or hold their charges to a high degree of expectation. Seriously, if any of you went to a meeting where someone talked to you the whole time without allowing any input, would you go again?

 

Eagledad has a great deal to offer. But how do we get that wisdom back to the council level? Is there some sort of rift between professional staff and volunteers? Is there a part of the business plan volunteers are not aware or do not understand? The decline in numbers is not society, or parents, or boys. The decline in numbers is because of the adult leadership for a plethora of varied reasons. So, what do we do about it, and where do we go from here?

 

[brianbuf]

Hey folks, some good and insightful thoughts. Keep it coming. I agree with a ton of the above. A discussion like this is healthy, I think. If I came across as one having all the answers, I apologize... my website has, and says that, it is my opinions based upon my observations and fact gathering. If I had all the answers, I could retire (again) and this time be a lot richer! Some of the answers are here, on this thread, via very insightful posters. Thank you.

 

[evmori]

Welcome! How do you think the Boy Scouts of America is doing? Membership up? Kids excited? Program resonating with the youth of today?

 

The truth is, scouting is shrinking and kids are leaving in droves. Double digit losses in some areas! The truth is the program and methods used in today's scouting simply does not appeal to many mainstream youth. Boy's Life magazine recently revised their circulation numbers on their advertising rate card, lowering their reported circulation by about 30%! Indeed, more than just a few troops cleaning up their membership rolls. (Click on the first link below for more info on how in trouble scouting is.)

 

This is tragic because the values and principles of scouting are needed more today than ever before. We NEED scouting. And we need scouting to address the interests and needs of our young people better. Thanks for visiting my site.

 

The new president of the BSA, William F. Cronk, said, as quoted in Scouting September 2006 page 36, " Scouting must continue to offer an attractive program 'that is relevant to kids today.'" This is a great quote, and this website is devoted to Mr. Cronk's vision of making scouting attractive to the kids of today.

 

My experience is those who dismiss the idea that scouting is in trouble are the old timers who like scouting the way it is. They have forgotten that scouting is not about them, as adult leaders, or what they happen to like. It is about reaching boys, teaching values, and changing lives for the better.

 

That's from your home page, Brian. Other than the small print at the top of the page that you recently added, where does it state it's your opinion & not fact?

 

The fact is your site is a joke. It is nothing but opinion and conjecture disguised as factual. The 30% decline you state in Boys Life subscriptions isn't accurate. Nothing on your site is.

 

You are quick to thank people for all their information but refuse to answer any questions directly posed to you.

 

I'll ask again, what real changes do you think are needed, Brian? All you list on your site are cosmetic changes. What program changes do you think will right this sinking ship, Brian?

 

 

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Eamonn]

Having 3 Threads running that are basically the same is very boring.

I really don't like the Ding, Dings!!

Back home when riding a double decker bus if you dinged once it was asking the driver to stop at a request stop (The bus didn't stop at every stop you had to let him know that you wanted to get off or if you were waiting for a bus you had to stick your arm out to let him know you wanted on) A double ding was the bus conductor telling the driver no one wanted off and he needn't bother stopping.

I have never taken the time to count how many threads or postings we have had on uniforms in this forum over the years. I know it's a lot.

I'm almost sure that if anyone took the time they could find a posting that some has posted that agrees with their view.

If you wanted you could copy it, stick it on a web site and make it seem that "Everyone" feels that way.

Trying to come up with a program that meets the needs of the Scouts we have today and the ones that will follow is not an easy task.

I stood in line at a check out the other day surrounded by Pokmon cards that were on clearance. Ten years ago I stood in line outside of Toys R Us in order to buy OJ a Pokmon mat, the stores couldn't keep them in stock. Thank goodness the BSA didn't have a Pokmon collectors merit badge.

We do well to ask why is the membership of the BSA down?

However before we start beating ourselves up we might ask:

Why is attendance at Major League Baseball on the decline?

Why are less people going to the movies?

Why are less people joining organizations like the Elks, Rotary and other service organizations?

Locally in the small town where I live less kids are signing up for softball and soccer even though we have new facilities for both. I don't think the uniform is an issue with them!

NASCAR is doing a wonderful job of marketing, but NASCAR requires no participation, most NASCAR fans that I know rush home to watch it on TV, sure they buy the merchandise, but very few have ever been to see a race. Young Lads might know the names of all the drivers and what sort of car, but it is a spectator sport.

A week ago the PA Game Commission announced

Hunting license sales down 37 percent.

Is it just me or does there seem to be a trend?

We have to be very careful that we don't allow trends to spoil what might be a great product.

Several wineries a few years back seen the decline in red wine sales. Many tried to boost sales by making and selling pinkish wines and for a while sales of white Zinfandel went through the roof. The Zinfandel trend did help introduce a lot of new people to wine drinking, but it was a trend and Zinfandel was soon replaced by the Merlot Wines a softer, fruitier, wine than cabernet sauvignon, but a long way from Zinfandel.

If we try and follow each and every trend or fad we will end up with a mishmash.Some things might seem to work very well for a while but might given the test of time end up like the Pokmon cards.

We might also have to accept that things are the way they are.

I don't know what the Game Commission can do to attract more hunters?

Somehow I don't think them sponsoring a racing car is the answer.

Eamonn.

[OldGreyEagle]

Eomonn by George, I think you may have stumbled on something. An Oenology merit badge! That will get the masses trampling to the doors!

[SWScouter]

Alas, declining memberships in scouting and service organizations, the drop in wine consumption, and the game departments diminishing revenues due to fewer license/tag sales is quite lugubrious.

 

SWScouter

 

(This message has been edited by SWScouter)

[OldGreyEagle]

You would prefer a more sanguine approach?