why is scouting shrinking? visit www.savescouting.org

[brianbuf]

I was stunned when I learned that scouting is shrinking. In 2005, 1 year alone, venturing shrunk about 10.9%. This same year the total number of active units shrunk by 5%. One out of 20 closed up. Ouch!

 

One of my woodbadge tickets was to promote growth in scouting via a webpage with my ideas and with some other promotions.

 

Please visit

 

www.savescouting.org

 

thanks. Brian

[emb021]

I've looked over your site and I think you need to re-think things. While I will not dispute the number drop, you're ideas of the causes (and their solutions) needs some work.

 

You're so called Myths.

 

Uh, yes, many boys when they reach the age of 15 or so are lost to other interestes: job, cars, girls, etc. This is why the BSA has worked for decades on programs that will appeal to that age bracket, the latest of which is Venturing.

 

"Standing around singing squirrel"

 

Sorry, what do you mean by this?

 

"participating in cheers and chants does not appeal to most of the older boys".

 

Oh? And what do kids do at 'pep rallies' at school???

 

"The reality is that kids make time for what appeals to them. This tells us that there are too many things that appeal to kids more than scouting does. The solution is to update scouting to be appealing to todays kids without loosing the values or principles that make scouting great."

 

Uh, true. Take a look at Venturing.

 

"Sitting around a campfire singing nursery rhymes"

 

Sorry, but I don't recall learning ANY of the campfire songs in nursery school.

 

Personally, I'm not big on sings, but I recall some fun I had AS AN ADULT, singing some of those old songs.

 

"We have trained leaders. Each year hundreds of new leaders get trained. "

 

Actually, what we have are people who AREN'T trained because they think they know it all and don't need it, as well as those who have gone thru training, but didn't learn anything.

 

And we have some who ARE trained, and put that training to use and have successful units.

 

As to "Your Ideas"

 

"It starts with Cub Scouts with references to characters in the Jungle Book. Most Cub scouts look blankly when they hear of Akela for the first time."

 

Then its up to the adults to introduce these characters so the Cub Scouts can understand them. Tossing them out is not the solution. And updating them to recent 'flash in the pan' characters who are do not match up is silly. There are no characters in Ice Age that matches to Akela.

 

"And the animals as patrol names. The Bobtails, the Moose, etc. How many sports teams or other groups would attract young folks using names like these? Imagine the NFL opener as the New York Bobtails vs. the Miami Moose. I don't think so!"

 

There are a WIDE range of patrol names available to the kids, and NOTHING stopping them from coming up with their own. My patrol as a kid was the Shark Patrol. BSA didn't come up with a patrol patch for that until decades later. But that never stopped us.

 

Oh, never heard of the Chicago Bulls or the Chicago Bears. And I know of a small college whose mascot, DEMANDED by the students, is a banana slug!

 

"For adults, at Wood badge we had to determine our patrols Totem. Again, using 1910 references sometimes alienates younger folks. Why not modernize terms and call it a mascot or team name or icon? "

 

Why not educate them in what a totem is? Hint, its a little more hten a mascot or icon.

 

"And the Gillwill song, how does that start again? (Is there a beaver in the house?) "

 

Uh, that's not how the Gilwell song goes. And you mispelled Gilwell.

 

"Wood badge we spent over 2 hours singing about working our tickets as we can. Again, a reference to 1910 British army transfers."

 

And your point is? This is relavent how?

 

"Update the Uniform. We need a uniform. That is what makes scouts special. But it needs to be a new, affordable, in style uniform! Out of style pants and shirts, colored neckerchiefs and patches."

 

Neckerchiefs are a traditional scouting item world wide. There are scouts in many countries whose only uniform is that neckerchief. And there is nothing stopping your troop from NOT wearing one.

 

I have my issues with the uniform, but I see no concrete ideas in what you state.

 

As to updating the merit badges, 'pulp & paper' would be dropped if few were earning them. If you think new merit badges are relavent, get to work on them. We just got a new one in composite materials. But 'cool merit badges' aren't going to attract & retain kids.

 

 

My advise is that you really need to rethink your ideas. What little good ideas are overshadowed by some that are just bad. By biggest advise is learn more about scouting, its history, and its traditionals. You seem to have NO respect for any kind of tradition, which is sad.

 

 

 

 

 

[brianbuf]

Wow, what a well thought out reply. I appreciate you taking the time to both read www.savescouting.org and reply. We obviously disagree on a few items, but I think everyone agrees there are steps to attract more kids that can be taken. I do want to comment on just a few of your items

Uh, yes, many boys when they reach the age of 15 or so are lost to other interestes: job, cars, girls, etc. This is why the BSA has worked for decades on programs that will appeal to that age bracket, the latest of which is Venturing.

As I said, most kids are already gone, mentally at least, by 13 or so. Venturing is great, but why the loss? Most drop out in the mind years before. But if not this, why a 10.9% drop in a single year? We have more trained leaders using the patrol method! Why the drop ... they have always had girls and car distractions... why the drop?

 

"Standing around singing squirrel" Sorry, what do you mean by this?

really don't know this one? When you lose something you have to sing this silly song to get your stuff back... heard it in many troops.

Take a look at Venturing. "Sitting around a campfire singing nursery rhymes" Sorry, but I don't recall learning ANY of the campfire songs in nursery school.

Boy, we must being going to different camps and Woodbadges. That "2nd story window" song.. haven't you hear it... full of nursery ryhme stories... look in the Woodbadge song book. "the window, the window, the 2nd story window..."

Personally, I'm not big on sings, but I recall some fun I had AS AN ADULT, singing some of those old songs.

Ding ding ding ding... we have a winner! My point is exactly! Except BSA is about the boys, not about us leaders. When we want to keep BSA the same and out of date because WE LEADERS like the program, we will continue to lose boys year after year. My opinion.

 

Then its up to the adults to introduce these characters so the Cub Scouts can understand them. Tossing them out is not the solution. And updating them to recent 'flash in the pan' characters who are do not match up is silly. There are no characters in Ice Age that matches to Akela.

Superman has been around and "cool" for 50 plus years. That is not my idea to use him, but just an example.

" Uh, that's not how the Gilwell song goes. And you mispelled Gilwell. "Wood badge we spent over 2 hours singing about working our tickets as we can. Again, a reference to 1910 British army transfers." And your point is? This is relavent how?

My point is that it is NOT relavent! 2 hours of my time. And sorry about the miss-spelling.. if that is my worse mistake then "trhow me out the window, the window, the 2nd story window"... I was in London a few years ago.. I will make better notes of Gilwell park on my next visit.

Neckerchiefs are a traditional scouting item world wide.

I don't think so. I spoke to someone who attended the last worldwide Jamboree and some class A's were tie dye t-shirts! And look at the link on my website to the ad about scouting.. showing it "cool" and appealing! Not one single neckerchief that I could see! You can wear mine for me.. and my "turks head" woggle. (I am conservative, anti-9-11, but turks head, come on!)

But 'cool merit badges' aren't going to attract & retain kids. My advise is that you really need to rethink your ideas By biggest advise is learn more about scouting, its history, and its traditionals. You seem to have NO respect for any kind of tradition, which is sad.

I am huge on tradition, just moved to be within a mile or so of where my 4th great grandfather is buried, one of the first people in this area of the state to settle and be buried here. My roots are deep, and we celebrate pioneer day each year. And I have been in scouting many years, off and on admitedly.

Although your response is what I would expect from many, not all, folks on a scouting board. While I do appreciate your comments, take your ideas into consideration, and constantly update my website, I did fail to see one thing in your post.

It is this : What would YOU suggest be done differently to grow scouting, not lose 10.9% of venturing in a single year. The same things are not working when 1 out of 20 units completely close down in a single year. What things would YOU post on a website as things that would revitalize scouting? As the new president said, to "make scouting relevant in the lives of boys today" (or something like that).

You are long on critism, short on ideas to change and improve scouting. I am all ears, my friend!

 

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Brian,

It is shame you spent so much time singing the Gilwell song, but didn't learn it correctly. FYI, it isn't "working on my ticket as I can" - it is "going to work my ticket if I can"

 

Yes, the neckerchief is very traditional, especially world-wide. The Scout Council Headquarters in Cape Town, South Africa has a great collection of neckerchiefs from all over the world. They also have a nice collection of authentic Baden-Powell books, letters, heirlooms, etc... BTW, one of my ticket items was putting together a presentation on International Scouting, focusing on South Africa. Their Cub program also follows Akela and The Jungle Book, but their ranks are Cheetahs, Leopards and Lions.

 

If you don't like turks head woggles, what are you going to do with your leather one? What next - do you want to get rid of the tartan as well?

 

Where did you take your Wood Badge course? I don't recognize some of the songs you mentioned, I'm curious what part of the country you are in.

[brianbuf]

 

You are right on the line in the Gilwell song.. after the first hour I became a little board with it and just sang it by memory as it came out.

 

Went to Woodbadge in the intermountain west about 1 month ago. I was told that "every boy deserves a trained leader" and if I was going to be any good as a leader I had to go. I was asked by the sponsoring organization (a church) to work with the Venture part of the troop but to be the leader as well over all the other adult leaders. So woodbadge was basically required. I feel there was 4 hours of world class training over the 6 days. I had tons of corporate training so there was very little new.

 

Funny thing, not to knock anything, but a staff lady ate dinner with us on night 4 and was talking about some "vangaurd" training or something. I said, oh, how interesting. What is it and how does it differ from Woodbadge. She said it was a bout the same. The danger, of course, is to not forget that scouting is first about the boys, second about what we like. Training is to first help the boys, second for a place for adults to hang out and take the same courses under different names. Just my opinion. (How is that for a fire starter).

 

 

[evmori]

There is more free time now? Nah. Kids today are so over scheduled & over protected they have no time for anything.

 

I think you need to rethink your myths. Some are facts.

 

It seems you want to totally retool Scouting. Do you want to retool the values, too?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

I think this is good stuff and I enjoy reading other folks opinions in an area I have so much passion. If I may, the fallacies I see in the results are that they are basically opinions of a few, if not one adult. Not data or facts based from polls or questioning of groups and individuals. I mean to say that uniforms are basic reason boys rather go somewhere else like sports, or girls really makes no sense in a program where they can go rapelling, canoeing and even scuba. But I see these kinds of subjects come up all the time, we have our opinions and we want to do better in an organization that has so much to offer our children. The problem is we dont think like boys and we dont get in the shoes so many adults.

 

Go get the facts. I know this because I spent a lot of time asking scouts why and why not. One example to explain what I mean is the huge loss of Webelos to scouts. As much as 50% in many councils. We heard the same old tired excuses that boys of the 10 and 11 year age chose sports over scouts. But when I went and interviewed Webelos, lots of them. I found that boys ready to quit scouts were just plain bored going to Webelos meetings, sitting and doing crafts. AT the same time the boys excited to join Troops enjoyed their meetings of learning skills like cooking and fire building, riding bikes and hiking in a nearby park. They camped, fished and went on site-seeing trips. After a while you start to see a picture. And on the front side, you would jump to the conclusion that it must be lousy adults or lousy training, but then I went and talked leaders of both the successful dens and the not so successful dens. I found that the majority of the less successful dens were mothers who started their Cub Leadership experience in Tigers and by the time the reached the Webelos age, they were just plain burned out. I also found out through a little research that a volunteer organization can expect the average enthusiastic volunteer to give about three years. Now go look at the Cub Scout plan and you find that Tigers to Bears is three years. On top of all that, 90 percent of Cub Leaders are women who dont know how to tie knots, build fires, cook on fires, sleep in a tent in the cold and heat and dont like to go to the bathroom behind a bush. The Cubs have created the perfect storm by combining burned out non outdoorsy mothers and Webelos at the 4th year of Cub Scouts.

 

If you interview boys, or adults for that matter, you find that we look at the expectation of our future by our present experience. If we are having a boring time in scouts now, we see our future with the same expectation and start looking to jump ship.

 

Use to Cub scouts was three years long. The BSA has since added first graders (Tigers) and Second year Webelos. Five years is a long time for that age group and it takes a lot of cleaver design and enthusiasm to keep adults excited to be creative enough to hold the interest of boys who rather dream of running in the woods then sit at a table doing crafts.

 

It took me several years to learn all that and it is not my opinion based on my personal biases of what is fun and not fun. I just simply went out and start talking and interviewing scouts and adults to find out what is really going on.

 

I have also done this at the older scout age and let me just say that know matter what uniform the BSA picks, the boys wont like it because that is how they are designed in the 13 to 15 year age group. Its not just their uniform; it is the clothing mom buys and the close the pick out for themselves at the mall also. Just go watch your son get dressed in the morning. How they dress during that age identifies who they think they are. You really think the BSA can make that work for the majority of boys? Boys who hang in scouting past puberty basically have no trouble with uniforms.

 

Sit down and talk to them and listen. I mean really listen because they wont give you a direct answer, it is between the lines. What I learned is two basic things about older scouts that we adults dont do a very good job doing. They dont want to repeat the first two or three years of a basic first class type program, and they want to respected as and adult. Not repeating their first year doesnt mean they dont want to work with younger scouts, because I find they actually enjoy serving. What they mean is dont make them follow the younger scouts through their same old experience, which means they feel like baby sitters while doing all that first class type stuff AGAIN. Older scout should be serving the troop by leading and running it. Older scouts should be doing what most adults are doing. Give them the responsibility of success and failure of the team and they will rise to the occasion and relish the experience because there is no other place or program that has that opportunity. Think about it for a minute, where else can a boy who has the biology of a man go to do adult work. The troop is perfect really, but 90% of them wont give the older scouts those kinds of responsibility or respect.

 

Second, treat them like adults. Nothing feels worse than feeling like an adult but being talked down to all the time. Talk eye to eye and ask questions instead of telling them your opinion. Treat them just as you treat the ASMs and the Committee adults and watch as they stand in ah. ALLOW them to make a difference as adults, not as boys and you will see older scouts excited to be older scouts in your unit. Problem is our culture now sees a boy stay a boy until high school graduation. 50 years ago a 15 year old was running a farm, today we tell them when to go to bed.

 

When you are serious about finding the real problems, you got to ask what the boys want and what the adults are giving. You have to listen and read between the lines. Ignore you feelings like songs and uniforms because that is small stuff to boys. They may or may not like that depending on their age, but they are bigger than that. Boys are dreamers and dreamers arent driven by songs and uniforms. They are driven by the ability to see their dreams come true and the freedom to find themselves. More than anything else we humans are in search of what we are. Scouting is perfect for that when the adults get out of the way. Songs, uniforms, scarfs and all that other stuff is just little bits of spice that add flavor. It is the meal that keeps or drives off scouts. Look at the meal.

 

Not to long ago I read someone on this forum say that thank goodness the Tigers can wear the blue shirts now, otherwise she, the mother, the adult, would not have joined cubs. The blue shirt? If we are loosing numbers, look at the whole picture. Have you notice that the Tiger program has changed shapes five times in the dozen or so years. Have you notice that Webelos are still loosing about 50% of the scouts before the Troop age? We arent asking the right questions?

 

Have a great week all.

 

Barry

 

[SemperParatus]

Maybe its just me, but the many young men and women I see today, aren't into cool. They are into the passionate pursuit of their chosen activities.

 

The diversity hoopla of our generation has filtered down to our kids such that just about anything can be cool, as long as it is something that you are passionately committed to. They are into being 'hot' (not cold, lukewarm or cool) for their interests whether it is sports, music, scouts, school, politics, poetry, video games, history, dance, service, cooking, cars, or whatever. In fact, being 'cool' as in following the latest fads and showing a nonchalent indifference to ones surroundings, is antithetical to the new cool of being passionate and true to yourself.

 

Teenagers (and younger kids) are much wiser then you think. Changing some names, pictures and pants is not going to make things cool and increase numbers. Giving them a sense of belonging around a high purpose, is what develops the passion and commitment that people are looking for in their lives. It is that passion and commitment that has built the BSA program into what it is today and will, ultimately, see it through the future. Having a Spongebob patch will not cut it.

 

There was a recent survey of twentysomethings that sought to determine what made people cool today. It found that friendliness, loyalty and honesty were the traits associated with being cool in 2006. I think we have heard those words before.

 

 

[brianbuf]

Eagledad...

Wow, your insights are awesome!

I think we agree that the BSA headquarters should be doing focus groups with the kids. We CAN keep the values and update the program to make scouting relevant to the kids today.

 

At a national level, interviewing kids is the best way to make changes that keep them interested, while keeping the values.

 

Scouting should not be about what we like as adult leaders. The kids should always come first. I am not getting much push back from kids, just adults!

 

and Emboy21... whats up? who said anything about Spongebob? How would you change scouting to reverse the alarming drop in enrolment? What are your ideas you would be willing to share, perhaps create a website for all to take cheap shots at? Spongebob, real funny.

[emb021]

""Standing around singing squirrel" Sorry, what do you mean by this?

"really don't know this one? When you lose something you have to sing this silly song to get your stuff back... heard it in many troops."

 

In my area, we don't call it that. Its up to troops to have such a tradition, and some might not. Its NOT part of the scouting program (ie there is nothing in the SM handbook or any training that says we are to do it). Some camps do it (mine did), but we did not call it that. My troop never did it. The point is to make the kids responsible for their stuff, as oppose to leaving it around, thinking that mommie will pick up after him.

 

 

""Take a look at Venturing. "Sitting around a campfire singing nursery rhymes" Sorry, but I don't recall learning ANY of the campfire songs in nursery school.

"Boy, we must being going to different camps and Woodbadges. That "2nd story window" song.. haven't you hear it... full of nursery ryhme stories... look in the Woodbadge song book. "the window, the window, the 2nd story window...""

 

Yes, prehaps so. I don't recall this song you mention. Not in my WB song book. And as a I said, all the campfire songs I am familiar with I learned in scouting, not nursery school. And many of them are traditional, widely used campsong (ie not just at boy scout camp, but at chuch camps, private camps, world wide, etc)

 

""Then its up to the adults to introduce these characters so the Cub Scouts can understand them. Tossing them out is not the solution. And updating them to recent 'flash in the pan' characters who are do not match up is silly. There are no characters in Ice Age that matches to Akela.

 

"Superman has been around and "cool" for 50 plus years. That is not my idea to use him, but just an example."

 

No, Superman has not been 'cool' for 50+ years. I collect and read comic books. He's also a copyrighted character.

 

""Neckerchiefs are a traditional scouting item world wide.

 

"I don't think so. I spoke to someone who attended the last worldwide Jamboree and some class A's were tie dye t-shirts! And look at the link on my website to the ad about scouting.. showing it "cool" and appealing! Not one single neckerchief that I could see! You can wear mine for me.. and my "turks head" woggle. (I am conservative, anti-9-11, but turks head, come on!)"

 

Yes, they are. Someone else answered this. If you go to Kanderstag, ALL the staff are known by their pink neckers.

 

Also, its called a "turks head" knot because that is its name. We are NOT going to change the name of a knot because of a single event.

 

And I don't wear neckerchiefs. Too hot down here. the only time I've worn neckerchiefs in the last couple of decades have been when I've been required to, and that's only been my wood badge ones.

 

"It is this : What would YOU suggest be done differently to grow scouting, not lose 10.9% of venturing in a single year. The same things are not working when 1 out of 20 units completely close down in a single year. What things would YOU post on a website as things that would revitalize scouting? As the new president said, to "make scouting relevant in the lives of boys today" (or something like that)."

 

I would first not assume that the problem is with the scouting program and making it more relevant. You need to find what the root cause is. Have you done so? There may be many causes, and they may not be related to program issues. Someone failing to implement the program properly is not a failing of the program. Many units fail because the program is not being use correctly. Sometimes there are adult issues involved. You can't solve a problem unless you know the cause. I don't think you know what it is.

 

 

Oh, and you mentioned "Pulp and Paper" merit badge, as an example of an 'irrelavent merit badge'. Well, per the stats at National (Merit Badge Program Fact Sheet: http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-500.html), 2878 Pulp and Paper Merit Badges were earned last year. Beating out Plant Science, Veterinary Science, Surveying, Stamp Collecting, Theatre, Fly Fishing, and several others. The smallest number earned was American Business at 541. And we all know how irrelavent that topic is.

 

I am 'short on ideas' because I just do not agree with your premise. I have my issues with scouting, but nothing like yours. I wonder what some of our more traditionalists will say about your ideas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Changing some names, pictures and pants is not going to make things cool and increase numbers. Giving them a sense of belonging around a high purpose, is what develops the passion and commitment that people are looking for in their lives.

 

A great insight by Semper, followin' on Eagledad's post. But we're still losin' numbers.

 

So maybe our problem is that we've given up our focus on the high purpose, on passion and commitment, and on treatin' them like young adults and peers.

 

Instead, da kids see us spendin' our time on da uniform, or on how to get a badge without addin' to the requirements, or on singin' silly songs. Just look at our forum posts, eh?

 

It may not be a problem with the uniform. The problem may be with what we care about passionately. And it seems that what we really care about passionately is the uniform, and the Gilwell critters, and patches, and advancement bureaucracy. Not on High Purpose.

 

And they're right. That really is pretty dorky when you think about it, eh?

 

 

 

[brianbuf]

 

"Dorky".. good word. I have heard several kids say that word in relationship to scouting. My 11 year old is wanting to blow through scouts as fast as he can and get his eagle because it is so uncool to a point he doesn't want his friends to know he is involved! So you don't throw darts at him, he is considered an "all american kid" playing up 2 grades in Basketball, starting pitcher in baseball, gifted program at school, and very popular as all the kids have for years come to our house. good, clean cut, popular kids with excellent grades and involved in so much. He is a good barometer for kids today as he is very well rounded in everything. Piano, art, guitar, etc.

 

When I got dressed in Class A's for Woodbadge he laughed. "How are you going to attract middle of the road kids to scouting wearing that?" he basically said over breakfast.

 

Not to hurt anyone's feelings, Scouting can loose the "dorkiness" and still teach the great values. Friends don't let friends be dorks.

 

 

[SemperParatus]

Just out of curiosity, how many Napolean Dynamite lines have you heard from from your son and his friends over the past year? The line between dorky and cool has been blurred for years.

 

In a few more years, I venture to guess that your son may have a completely different take on cool.

 

I'd rather have a troop of a dozen highly committed scouts that understand and appreciate their dedication to and involvement in a century-old organization that has been at the vanguard of character development and speaks to them personally for a higher calling, then a troop of 100 lukewarm, middle of the road, could care less, speed through the dorkiness, quit as soon as my parents let me, scouts. Maybe shrinkage is a good thing and will make scouting stronger than ever.

[Eagledad]

>>then a troop of 100 lukewarm, middle of the road, could care less, speed through the dorkiness, quit as soon as my parents let me, scouts.

[gwd-scouter]

Hey Semper - good point there about Napoleon Dynamite. After that movie came out, I heard so many scouts in our troop saying "I got skills" I had to take the time to actually watch it. Stupid movie in my opinion, but I certainly can see its appeal to the boys. Interesting how much they enjoyed watching the "nerds" and "dorks" and have taken to imitating sayings from the film.

 

As usual, so many forum members have posted wonderful insights into what may be causing a decline in membership in scouting. Most are based on the poster's opinion, personal observances and experiences, or direct communications (interviews) with scouts and adults.

 

I, too, have spent many years discussing declining memberships - not only in scouts, but in many different youth groups: little league, YMCA, 4-H, and even decreasing tryouts for middle and high school sports teams. And, while I do not have hard and fast facts nor an interest website link to show any statistics, I feel confident in what I hear from the other fine folks in my community that are trying to reach out to our youth.

 

So, based on my own communications and observance, I think it comes down to this. Changing the uniform, mottos, merit badges, mascots, etc. will not reverse the course of declining membership. Children today are offered so many activities from which to chose. Add to that the many parents that are driven to produce perfect, well-rounded, multitalented children with resumes full of activities and memberships. There just isn't time to do everything.

 

This topic and others about improving Scouting have also been posted on another scouting forum by Brian. Most of the responses are the same as those here.

 

Finally, Brian, while you may have good itentions in wanting to improve the Scouting program, I find it difficult to think that you really like anything about it when you post:

"Friends don't let friends be dorks."