Charter Agreement

[CNYScouter]

The IH of the Ship called me earlier today and asked me about the Charter Agreement.

 

Our CO did not receive one. The only thing I have is a new unit application that the CO filled out and a framed certificate that said that said that the Club was the CO for the Ship.

 

Should the Club have gotten something or was filling out a new unit application enough?

 

The IH also asked about BSA Insurance and how the club was covered through this.

The club has received no information on this either.

 

It seems that the clubs insurance agent is telling them that they need to be named on this insurance.

 

I find this a little odd as the clubs insurance agent just stepped down as the District Chairman and it hasnt come up before.

 

The District Chair knew even before me, way back in March or April, that the club had decided to charter the ship as he was the first person they called asking about insurance when I approached them with the idea of a Sea Scout Ship.

 

I have to admit that I have no idea about these.

I am not sure who should really be dealing with these things.

I do know that I have enough to do being the Skipper and trying to recruit a Committee to have to deal with this too.

 

I am planning on calling my DE tomorrow.

 

Should I be contacting someone else in addition?

 

 

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

Sea Scout insurance has been a hot topic in the Sea Scout discussion pages.

You might want to talk to the people in your flotilla.

I know the pros in our Council are about as useful as pockets in your underwear when it comes to insurance matters.

Maybe the person who heads the Properties Committee in your Council?

I'd sent a letter to the Council Vice President for Program and the Council Commissioner. I'd copy the Council President and the Scout Executive.

That ought to get the wheels moving.

If the DE doesn't know, he is lightly to go on about the BSA Liability insurancee and when it comes to Sea Scouting you need to patch a few holes.

Eamonn.

[CNYScouter]

I saw the discussion about Sea Scout insurance.

It dealt more with insurance on a large vessel and so far we don't have a boat bigger than what you would typically see at a Scout summer camp (Sunfish, Lasers, etc.).

 

I looked at the "standard" Charter Agreement which our council uses.

In it it does say that the council will supply libility insurance for the CO and it does say who is covered under this insurance.

 

I think the issue is without a signed "Charter Agreement" our CO has no proof that the council has agreed to provide liability insurance for our them during scout activities.

 

With the District Chairman being our CO's insurance person I am not sure why this hasn't come up before and he seems unclear on how BSA insurance works (it didn't sound like he could explain it to the IH).

 

I talked with my DE and he just hasn't gotten around to have the CO sign this agreement.

The council does have more information about the insurance and is willing supply something in writing to the CO that shows they are covered. I hope this answers their questions.

 

The other issue I am also trying to resolve is using our council to receive boat donations for the Ship.

When the DE met with our CO about chartering a Ship he said that this wouldn't be a problem.

Now that someone has offered a boat for us to sell they seem to be dragging their feet to tell us how to make this happen.

 

[Eamonn]

"Now that someone has offered a boat for us to sell they seem to be dragging their feet to tell us how to make this happen."

This can be a big problem!!

You really need to talk to someone who has a good working knowledge of the IRS.

All sorts of things can come into play.

The condition of the boat.

Fair Use.

But as I understand it.

If the council accepts the boat it can offer a receipt which the donor can use for a tax deduction. The Council is a 501(3)© The Ship isn't.

Of course if they accept the boat it becomes the property of the Council and if it were sold the money should go to the Council.

The Council might run into a problem if the when the Council books are audited it shows that they made a donation to the sailing club who owns the Ship.

This is one reason we spent the money to become a 501(3©. It cost us about $800.00

Eamonn.

 

[CNYScouter]

Who's responsibilty was for the "Charter Agreement"?

 

It seems that this should have been one of the first items discussed with a potential CO which I can clearly see it wasn't.

 

 

This is the exact questions the CO has about how the boat donation will work. The have an accountant who is fimilar with the IRS and they want to be sure it is done right.

 

During the Ship's open house I metioned creating a 501(3)©to accept boat donations as see this is how many ships handle boat donations.

 

The DE overheard this and told us we weren't allowed to do this and had to use the councils non-profit status for donations.

So our CO won't consider this (yet).

 

I know at least one troop that has done this recently. They were leasing a 75 acre camp and created a "Friends of the Scouts" group to purchase the land so I know it can be done.

 

I'll have to see if someone in the floatilla can help.

[Eamonn]

"Who's responsibility was for the "Charter Agreement"?"

If you view the agreement as a contract between the Council and the CO, both parties have a responsibility.

As a rule this isn't seen as a big deal. In fact when I was District Chairman, I informed our New Unit Coordinator not to get involved and leave that to the DE. He or She is the person who represents the Council and the BSA and ought to know the right answers? Even if he or she gives the wrong answers or wrong information the buck goes back to the Council and no one can say "Eamonn shouldn't have said that he is only a volunteer and ..."

This is one reason I feel so strongly about DE's spending time with CO Executive Officers. Just about everything else is far better when it's managed by volunteers who know what they are doing.

 

"During the Ship's open house I mentioned creating a 501(3)©to accept boat donations as see this is how many ships handle boat donations.

The DE overheard this and told us we weren't allowed to do this and had to use the councils non-profit status for donations.

 

This donation and 501(3)© business is tricky.

Is the Club a 501(3)©?

We have the local Elks as our CO. The Elks is tax exempt and we can use their tax numbers. We used the Elk's EIN's and PA tax exempt numbers when we opened our checking account. The Bank insisted that their name was on all the checks.

If the Ship were to die, the money in this account would end up back in the Elks funds. They own the unit and the equipment that the unit has.

If I were to write a check to Sea Scout Ship 777 for $1,000, I couldn't claim a deduction when I file my taxes. If I were to write the same check to the Elk's Lodge 777 I could claim the deduction. But while I'm sure they would turn the money over to the Ship, if the decided not to, I'd have no say in the matter.

The Elk's own a very nice building down town. They do not have any place to store large items like vehicles or Boats. They made it very clear that they do not want their parking lot filled with our equipment.(They have given us a small room for storing small equipment that we use for meetings.) They also made it very clear that should the Ship die that they want no part in trying to get rid of this type of equipment.

I asked our Council if they would accept the donations.

The SE at the time had come from Long Island and said that in that Council they had a problem with trying to get rid of boats that people donated. They ended up selling them at auction.

Most of the Boats that people donate are past their prime and didn't sell for anything like the people who donated them thought they were worth or didn't sell. This left the Council with the job of getting rid of them, again this this make the donors very happy.

Bottom line was he said that the Council wanted no part in donated boats.

I own a fair amount of property and several buildings which can be used to store boats.

One thing a lot of people who are willing to donate boats want to know is where the boats will be stored. So storage wasn't a problem.

We originally set up the 501 just to accept donations.

But...

Friends Of Sea Scout Ship 777, is not really part of the Council (Sea Scout Ship 777, which is chartered by the Elk's is part of the Council.)

Friends Of is a PA. Registered Charity and non-profit corporation in its own right and does not come under the jurisdiction of the Council and if we wanted does not have to follow the fund raising rules of the BSA. (We could if we wanted have the Friends of Sea Scout Ship 777 sell tickets - not the Sea Scouts.)

We can also pursue foundation and grant money.

The Council doesn't like this.

At present our local United Way is de-funding 39 Organizations which have endowment funds. (Nothing to do with Gays or God) They (the UW) feel that giving money to organizations that has large amounts of money set aside. Needless to say not everyone agrees with them. The United Way feels it wants to do more to help start up organizations and supply the "Feed Money" So I applied. The people in their office were really great. We made a big case of there not being a lot of recreational activities for teenage girls in our area. We ended up with $750.00. We are hoping that they will help come up with some of the money we need for a 15 seater van. So far the Van fund has several thousand dollars, all of which came in as donations to the friends....

As a rule I'm not big on "Loop Holes". But I don't think our Council left us much choice.

We are happy to follow the rules. As Sea Scouts we comply with all the BSA guide lines as Friends of Sea Scout Ship 777 we follow the rules laid down by the state.

The paperwork that went into becoming a 501 was a real nightmare.

While the Council may feel that we are endangering their efforts to raise money.The people at the United Way didn't see it that way. In fact they want to see lot more smaller organizations come to them and they want to see the money spent at the grass roots level.

While the aim is of course to serve the Sea Scouts, the 501(3)© is in its own way not part of the BSA, much as the money the Elk's donate to the Ship is not part of the Council or the BSA.

The Council is of course free to look for all the foundation and grant money that is available to them as a 501(3)©, but as we are one in our own right have the same right.

If the Council doesn't like it -Well that's their problem, they don't have any say in it. After all if they had accepted the donations in the first place...

Eamonn.

[LongHaul]

CNYScouter,

Don't let the DE snow you 501(3)©"s are perfectly legal and your Council can not stop you from forming one. They don't like it because it takes all property out of the BSA's reach. Problem is insurance. BSA insurance may not cover liability for use of 501(3)© property. If a boy gets hurt on the boat who is insuring the boat?

As for the Charter Agreement it was signed when the ship was formed, no agreement no ship. Signing of the agreement was the act which created the unit.

LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

[Eamonn]

While LongHaul might be technically correct.

It does happen that a CO can receive a Charter without ever seeing or signing anything other than a new unit application form.

Scouts and leaders are covered by the BSA liability insurance. The equipment isn't.

From the G2SS:

BSA self-funds the first million dollars of each liability claim. This means that almost all money spent on a liability claim is Scouting money, not insurance money.

Accident and sickness insurance pays regardless of fault as long as the accident occurred during an official Scouting activity and the unit or council has purchased the coverage.

 

Our council charges each and every member $1.00 a year for this insurance.

The key words are "official Scouting activity "

The fact that a unit might have a 501(3)© in place has no bearing on this what so ever.

As long as it's an official Scouting activity the insurance is in place.

Eamonn.

It might be worth mentioning that the Charter Agreement stays in the Council, but the Charter information is transmitted to the National Office.

 

 

[CNYScouter]

Our council also has extra insurance that we pay a fee for. I have been told by 2 DE this can extend to equipment. The DE told our CO if a Ship Memeber were to damage one of its boats they could file a claim (although he say that most don't). I have also been told this insurance would extend to cover equipment if we used personal "equipment" for a scouting activity and it was damaged.

 

A new signed unit app and a framed certificate that says the Yacht Club has charter the ship is the only things they have received.

 

When I asked the DE about the "Charter Agreement" he acted like it was no big deal and would get around to getting it the CO.

 

When I read this simple agrement between a CO and council I can see it simply states what an organization's responsibilities are to become a CO.

If my council isn't bothering with these it doesn't surprize that there are units acting the way they are.

It seems to me that this is the very first thing that should have been gone over with a potential CO.

No wonder our council is in the mess it is in when we don't even use this basic agreement and let our CO's know what is expected of them from the beginning.

 

 

 

 

[LongHaul]

Just out of curiousity when units re charter in your respective areas do they have to submit a re charter agreement which is signed by the Chatering Organizational head, not to be confused with the COR, the unit CC and the Council Rep? In Chicago we do and that is the yearly renewal of the Charter Agreement. When we form new units this same form is used and accompanies the application for the new unit.

LongHaul

[Eamonn]

Unit rechartering is done by the Commissioner Staff. (Volunteer to Volunteer)

Dealings with Executive Officers and agreements between the two organizations are managed by the District Executive.(Pro to Pro)

Eamonn.

 

[LongHaul]

Eamonn,

Thanks for the info, here the unit is responsible for getting the agreement signed by the Chartering Organizational Head and the unit Committee Chairperson. The Chairperson or designate then sits with a district volunteer and goes over all the paperwork for errors and to write a check for fees. The unit rep gets a copy of all the forms and the completed forms with the money are then turned over to council for processing. A formal copy of the actual Charter certificate is then mailed to the unit for presentation to the CO. The copy of the charter agreement and the Certificate end up back with the CO.

LongHaul

[CNYScouter]

I cant say if all of our districts work the same way but I have been involved with 2 districts during re-chartering.

 

I have been the CC for a Pack and Crew, ASM for 2 Troops and now the Skipper for a Sea Scout Ship. The Pack and the Crew (and now the Ship) were in 2 different districts.

 

As the CC for The Pack and Crew I had to get signatures for the charter renewal from the CO.

 

I didnt have anything to do with the troops rechartering.

 

As a CC I had no help from a UC, District, or council for the charter renewal process.

I can pretty much say this was true for the troops as well as one didnt have a UC and no one knew, even at district level, who the UC was for the second troop.

The Ship doesnt have a UC, and most likely never will, so we will be left on our own to handle rechartering next Spring.

 

Seeing the way my DE handled the starting of a new unit I going to say that our DEs dont visit COs very often nor do they do much with the Charter Agreements.

 

It looks like even though I have nothing to do with the Charter Agreement between the Council and Yacht Club as the CO, I may have to explain this agreement means to the IH.

 

Any suggestions on doing this?

 

[Eamonn]

"It looks like even though I have nothing to do with the Charter Agreement between the Council and Yacht Club as the CO, I may have to explain this agreement means to the IH."

 

One bad thing about starting a unit is that in some ways you feel a type of ownership.

While you are of course a member of the BSA, you now serve the Club.

The agreement is between the club and the council.

You don't represent either.

If the Club wants to know about this refer them to the council. Remind them that your job is to present the program and if the top guy in the club wants to know more he needs to make sure that the COR is doing his job.

You might want to give the COR a friendly kick in the pants.

You need to stop trying to be involved in everything and get on with being the Skipper.

Eamonn.

[CNYScouter]

The IH and COR are still not clear on the relationship between aUnit, CO and council and their roles and responsibilities

If I dont explain it who will?

 

I cant get any response from District or Council level people and my DE is in no big hurry to explain this.

 

I did tell the IH that as a unit level scouter I didnt really have much to do with these items and he show direct his specific questions to the DE.

 

It looks like I may need to have a talk with our SE.

Im not sure Ill get much attention from him with all the issues we are having about selling one of our camps and our offices.