Lack of Commitment

[CNYScouter]

With 2 sons that have been in Scouts, I've now been involved with a Cub Pack, 2 troops, a Venturing Crew and a Sea Scout Ship.

 

In every one of these trying to get people to commit to an activity has been impossible.

 

 

At one Pack event a couple of years ago only 11 people signed up to attended.

2 days before a family of 5 called and said they couldn't make it.

That left myself, the CM and his son and a DL with two kids.

The day of the event 35 people showed up in which we where totally unprepared for.

 

Both Troops we have been with have tried to hold high Adventure Trips but couldn't get anyone to commit to go.

 

The Troop we are in now is putting a HA trip for next weekend.

They aren't going to submit a tour permit for this (they never do one) and who ever shows up next Friday is who will be going.

 

I'm seeing it again with the Ship.

Our council now requires that local tour permits be submitted 2 weeks prior to going yet I can't get people to commit to anything even 24 hours in advance.

 

We have an August Activity planned for next weekend and the only ones I know that are going are my son and I there has been no responce from the rest of the Ship.

 

I've tried to work with both the adults and youth by telling them we can't just throw something together at the last minute but it seems thay they just not have the event than to commit to coming.(This message has been edited by CNYScouter)

[Jeffrey H]

CNY Scouter,

 

It is frustrating.  In my experience with our Pack, parents want the calendar filled with all sorts of activities, but at the same time make no commitment to any of those events.  Some adults never make it out of their childhood years when it comes to keeping promises.

 

Heres what works for us.  The week preceding an event, the CM or the ACM (myself) contact the parents to remind them of an event to get a headcount and a verbal commitment.  Some folks forget to sign-up so they appreciate the reminders.  Also, folks forget that they signed-up and appreciate the reminders.  E-mail is a good to use, but a phone call is much better.  This works for us and dramatically reduces the number of no-shows or unexpected guests. 

 

If its a really BIG event, we will threaten to cancel if commitment is very low.  This last resort elimates the Ill wait and see if something better comes up folks.

 

I probably havent told you anything you dont already know, but maybe it will be a help to another reader.

 

--Jeff

 

 

[John-in-KC]

I see three challenges:

 

First is leader recruitment. Especially at Cub and Boy level, leaders are required, if for nothing else than driving support!

ONE FIX: Welcome every child to the unit, require an adult to register and take (FS, YP, MBC, NLE and Troop Committee Challenge) as part of the bargain. Parents have to understand that support of the program is not-negotiable.

 

Second, especially in Boy Scouting and Venturing, is letting youth have program ownership. If they decide on the events, then they will want to go to them. There is nothing wrong with having the Committee(s) tell the youth (PLC, Ship Bosun's Mate, or Crew President) that X-15 days is "FRIDAY AFTERNOON" and that the go/no-go decision gets made by the (President/Bosun's Mate/SPL) at that point. It may also mean collecting basic funds furter out.

 

Last, who is making the deadline calls? In Cubbing, it has to be parents, but in both Boy Scouting and Venturing, why aren't the youth doing it? THEN, the youth have the responsibility, get the glory if the event goes and goes with fun!, and get the accountability if the event doesn't go.

[CNYScouter]

I fully agree that the Ship members should be setting deadlines however our council now requires tour permits to be turned in 2 weeks before the activity so they are setting the deadlines.

 

A couple of years ago I could go over a few days before the trip, give the paper work to the secretary, shop in the Scout stoare and the paperwork would be processed when I was done.

That's no onger the case.

 

What I am now facing is that 3 weeks ago at the Ship meeting the youth members decided on an activity and appointed a chair.

 

At that time I did point out a tour permit had to be turned in 2 weeks prior, handed a copy of the tour permit to the activity chair and told them to contact me if they have any questions.

 

The activity chair did nothing, the dealine passed and last week the ship decided on a new date and activity.

Still no responce.

 

This type of responce just seems to be typical with almost every unit I have been with or talked too.

 

It took the 5 years for the SM of our first Troop to get enough interest to do a backpacking trip to the Rockies.

Even then only 11 people went 7 being adults, and 4 being scouts in the troop.

He just couldn't get anyone to commit to going.

 

We also had the same problem trying to get a crew to attend Seabase.

we couldn't even get 6 people to put down a deposit to go.

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Nah, you should be handlin' the adult hoop-jumpin' paperwork, CNY. Don't make the kids do that, especially not in your first year of operation. Just WAG the numbers on the tour permit.

 

It takes time to build a culture of commitment in your troop/crew, and it might be hopeless in a pack, eh? Get a year or two of fun and success under your belt however you can. I suggest phonecalls.

 

Then tighten up a bit, and turn people away. No point in arguin' or fretting; just say "sorry, you didn't sign up, you can't come. See you next time." Only takes a few times like that to start the brains workin'. But you'll still have to flex for kids from single parent families and split families, who often don't have a lot of control over their schedule coordination issues. So don't get too full of your own rules, eh? Just move 'em along step by step as best you can.

 

[John-in-KC]

I have to agree with Beavah... you have to train the youth in the process of planning a trip. When they know how to plan it, the blanks on the tour permit come naturally.

 

The culture of committment is a key priority for you as Advisor in the Crew's leadership education

[Chippewa29]

When do you collect the money for the event? My troop has had issues with that on and off over the years. We once had a campout where four of the nine Scouts who signed up didn't show. Of course, we didn't know until after the food was bought. We had way too much food and not enough money to pay for it (none of the Scouts paid ahead of time).

 

By the next year, we were collecting money ahead of time. This time, we had twelve Scouts signed up and paid for. Five didn't show up for the campout (including two or three of the same no shows from the previous year). The next Monday, their parents asked for their money back and gave some lame excuse why they couldn't make it (we had a family committment). It was a troop committee meeting night and a big argument ensued. Our treasurer refused to give back the money, saying that they made a commitment and had to stick to it (he pointed out what happened the year before).

 

Finally, one of the parents said it was the same as buying a ticket to a concert or sporting event. If something came up, no way were you going to get your money back, no matter what your excuse.

 

On the other hand, we had an event where we had to give the place solid numbers about two weeks before. Therefore, we told everyone they had to have their money and permission slip in by two meetings before the event. When it came time to gather for the event, a Scout and dad that hadn't signed up showed up to go. When we had asked the dad two weeks before if they were going, he waffled and wouldn't make a commitment. Long story short, the kid and dad didn't get to go. The kid was really upset because all his friends were going. Although the dad was mad at us for "making his son cry", they had their money in on time for the next event.

 

Getting a commitment in writing and more importantly, with money, will help a lot in this area. The ones who don't like it can leave and wouldn't be loyal to your unit anyway. Scouting is not a drop in club.

[EagleInKY]

Ah, the old getting them to commit problem. I've posted my own frustrations about this as well.

 

We're putting a new process in place, and we'll see how it goes.

 

Two weeks before an activity (11 days typically, since we meet on Mondays) is the final signup for an activity. you miss this date, you don't go. In some cases (when reservations/tickets are required, etc.), the date may be moved up sooner.

 

One week before (four days) is the last day to back out and not have to pay, unless reservations/tickets were required.

 

Sometimes the money doesn't come in until the day of, but the commitment is there. I've had the parent try to get money back as well, but we just don't do it. One involved a parent who backed out of a big trip the day we were leaving. He was out nearly $100. But we stood firm, reservations and tickets had been purchased and were non-refundable.

[scoutingagain]

For weekend trips, we havn't had too much of a problem. We occaisionally get one or two that decide at the last minute they can't go, usually for relatively good reasons, and it's not a big impact. We have a sign up sheet, scouts have to sign their name to at least a week before the trip, so there is some sense of signed commitment.

 

On the longer, summer camp or High adventure trips, we have always had a requirement that some level of earnest money be put down that is at risk if a scout or scouter decides at the last minute they can't make it. If that happens, we refund as much as we can, but under no circumstances has the troop paid for no shows if the troop can't get it's money back. It's generally understood if you don't go, you lose the dough.

 

SA

 

 

[firecrafter]

We recruit. We train, and we still have commitment issues. Our troop has ONE adult leader that can be counted on. We had two, but the continual whining of parents finally drove the other one away. He rarely attends anymore. The other adult leaders will help ocassionaly, but are in general not reliable. They "forget" when they have a job to do, or just don't show up. No phone call either. Their sons seem to "forget" too. Go figure.

 

I think we do a decent job of communicating. We do a monthly newsletter, a phone tree, emailing, and have a troop website. I gave out a newsletter last meeting AND the information was posted on the troop website-yet I had many phone calls asking if there was a meeting this week. Now the parents would like me to MAIL copies of the newsletter out to those who missed the meeting. So I would be keeping track of parental attendance too. We have a light meeting schedule in the summer. We have had numerous parents angry that they went to our meeting place on nights there was no meeting. Wouldn't a simple phone call by the scout to his patrol leader solve that? When I suggested this at a recent CM I nearly got my head bit off! Heaven forbid the scout or even his parent would take some responsibility for getting the information! The feeling was that it was the leader's responsibility to make sure everyone was informed.

 

When my oldest was in scouting, if he had a question he called his patrol leader. There were no newsletters or troop schedules handed out. If you wanted to be "in the loop" you attended the meeting, maybe even took a few notes! If you didn't get your paperwork turned in, you stayed home-period. Only happened ONCE to my son. And I never had to remind him of outings-he reminded me!

 

We have tried all sorts of things to get paperwork and fees turned in on time. We tried telling boys "sorry, you missed the deadline/didn't have the correct fees-you can't go this time". Parents threw an absolute fit, and so the rule is no longer observed. It was deemed "unfair" (how I hate that word!). I agree that there are situations with things like single parents where you can't expect the same level of commitment. We tried making adjustments for these families and heard cries of "unfair" or "favoritism" and "If you do it for one, you have to do it for everyone". How ridiculous is that? The boys from single parent homes don't exactly have a "fair" situation to begin with. Exercising a bit of common sense would be refreshing.

 

This was from the same group who insisted that the troop could not go backpacking, unless a way was found to accommodate a mentally handicapped scout. Forget that his single Mom was happy to have him not attending, AND that those complaining weren't going on the trip! But I digress!

 

I wish I knew the answer. We make rules that no one observes. Even when we are firm, there is a "whatever" attitude. I do paperwork for the troop, so I see this firsthand. Parents turn things in when they feel like it. I am constantly turning in tour permits a day or two before a trip. I make extra trips to get signatures and drive 40 minutes to turn in paperwork at council! I reminded and begged parents for the paperwork they needed for summer camp the last two years we attended. How many reminders should people get? I'm firm with them, but there is a prevailing attitude in this group of parents that turning anyone away should never be done. Of course we want to give every boy the opportunity to participate to the fullest, but some parents think the adult leaders should put up with just about anything. I think if a few trips were cancelled or a few scouts turned away they would perhaps see the light. Just MHO.

 

I am hoping that when a strong CC takes over at recharter things will change a bit. The SM is great, but he is one person. I am weary of holding everyone's hand (as far as paperwork goes) and so will resign at the end of my term. I will serve as a CM but no longer do the troop's paperwork. They have worn me out.

 

The solution to this problem is for each person to shoulder some of the load, rather than burn out the few. I understand things are this way in many organizations-been there done that. If anyone has suggestions or ideas on how to better make this happen I'd love to hear them. Sorry this sounds so negative but it is where we seem to be at this time. Thanks.

firecrafter

 

[Venividi]

Firecrafter,

 

How many of us can commiserate. You do answer your own question in your post. You get it. One issue with many volunteers is that they want to please everybody. It cant be done.

As long as those that understand the program and volunteer to do the work bow to, and continue to accomodate the demands of those that don't understand the program and take advantage of those that do the work, nothing will change. There will continue to be stress, and continued demands on your time.

 

I understand your need to step back after burning out. In your last few months, I encourage you to take a firm stand to make things better for those that come after you. Do not wait for a new CC who may(or may not) be stronger. Stand your ground now.

 

I know this from experience. When I took over as scoutmaster, the troop committee had a culture of inactivity. The scoutmaster filed tour permits, collected permission slips, served as adult quartermaster, made campsite reservations, etc. As long as the SM continued to do this, parents continued to expect it. 6 months before turning over the reigns to a new SM, I resolved that I would not pass the problem on to him. I told the committee that I was turning it all back to them. I would be available to answer questions, but would no longer preform those other functions because the scouts were being short changed because I was using time that I should have been using to be talking with the Jr. Leaders.

The troop ended up cancelling 4 campouts in a row. We did lose some families that were looking for a program to which they did not need to contribute, but eventually others stepped up. It was "tough love". It was painful. In the short term, the boys lost some opportunities. But in the long run the troop benefitted. The committee became stronger. There were more parents willing to share the load of running a troop. And more parents that "got" the concept behind the aims and methods. It wasn't a panacea - There were still parents that didn't, and would complain when the troop didn't do things to their liking, and take that to the committee, but with more people understanding the aims, it was no longer the noisy parents against the SM, but rather the committee supporting the aims, and supporting the volunteers rather than simply appeasing those that tended to vacally "bite heads off" when they didn't get their way.

 

This is where the "mission thing" in another thread applies. Until most parents are brought to understand and agree on a common mission, each individual brings their own "mission".

 

Good Luck.

 

 

 

 

[EagleInKY]

One other comment. I'd been struggling with this issue for some time and was getting very frustrated/burned out. I realized that I was the only one suffering the burden. Even my assistants weren't feeling it, in fact they were often part of the frustration. Even though I was trying to use the Scribe, SPL and PLC; I was the one having to deal with it.

 

At the first of the year, we implemented a new procedure where we rotated the coordination amongst the scoutmasters. Once the other guys started feeling the pain, we started making progress on coming up with a better process.

[Eamonn]

Wow!!I'm so proud of myself!!

I just read a posting by Beavah and not only managed to understand it!!

But agree with it!!

Dave

You have to slow down a little.

The Ship is how old? Two months??

Put all the stuff that happened in the Pack and in Boy Scouting in the history books. Looking back isn't going to do you or the Ship any good.

Councils can require what ever they like.

But don't let them intimidate you!!

Fax the tour permit in when it's ready.

What can they do?

Late permits are better than no permits and they know that!! It takes the office staff less than 5 minutes to fill out a tour permit and fax it back. It doesn't take 2 weeks!! So they are unhappy!!

Things WILL GET BETTER!!

When we first started I took two (Yes 2!!) Scouts to the Safety At Sea Weekend.

We went for a good while with a wonderful turn out for just about everything. But...

Over the summer, we had guys on camp staff and family vacations, NOAC, and now we have HS band camp, football camp and the list goes on.

The sailing weekend in Baltimore only had four Scouts sign up. The Scout in charge asked me what he should do? I pointed out that the boat was costing $200.00 for the weekend, gas would cost about $50.00, food would cost about $15.00 a head. I mentioned that we had planned renting a van for the weekend.

So he send out an e-mail saying the weekend was canceled.

Not long after a couple of Band parents called me to say that Band camp had been canceled!! Something to do with a new band director.

I pointed out that the information about the weekend had been on the Group page since June 6.

And that we couldn't take the chance of having the Scouts having to spend $80.00 each for a weekend that should have only been about $45.00.

They of course said that they didn't know that Band Camp was going to be canceled.

I said I didn't know either!!

Eamonn.

 

[gwd-scouter]

For years, our troop has struggled along with poorly attended campouts or cancelled campouts. When I took the job of SM a little less than 2 years ago, I made a commitment to the boys that I would not cancel a campout as long as at least 3 guys and another adult were going. Oh yes, went on a lot of 3-scout campouts! But, eventually, the guys got the idea that we would follow through with plans and go and do something every month.

 

Last August they held their first ever annual planning weekend. They filled the calendar with trips of their chosing. Still, attendance was pretty poor for the first half of the year. A couple of guys mentioned several times that something was seriously wrong if they actually planned what they wanted to do and still only a few signed up.

 

I know all of you have heard all the excuses too. The biggest problem we seemed to have was that the Scouts' families scheduled things that conflicted with our outings. Or, even worse, the Scout just didn't feel like going that time, or the next time, or the next.

 

Last year we started posting our yearly calendar on our website and sending newsletters home. It may not say specifically the location or theme of campouts, but the weekends were all identified; i.e., September 8-10, Campout (place to be determined). This was done in an effort to help families know well in advance what our schedule was.

 

Over the past year I've seen a slow change happening. Parents are becoming more interested in the happenings of the Troop. Not necessarily getting involved yet, but at least responding to emails, calling and asking questions and even contacting me to find out if it's too late for their Scout to sign up for a campout. More importantly, the scouts themselves are realizing we (the adults) meant it when we said it was their program, their plans, we will go and do what you want.

 

For example, last year the guys put a trip to Carowinds Theme Park on the calendar. I'll bet they thought we really wouldn't do that since it wasn't exactly a "scouting" type of outing. Yep, we went this past July. The guys that didn't go sure were disappointed when they heard what fun it was.

 

Just last weekend we had our white water trip. Best attended outing we've had in at least 3 years - 9 of 13 Scouts went, even a couple of senior scouts who haven't been on an outing with us in over a year! I don't know if it made a difference, but I sent an email to everyone explaining that with the cost of gas we would not take the trip unless we had a minimum of 10 people going - that way 2 cars would be filled and cost of gas shared among more people. Also had to put in a deadline for payment since we wouldn't be refunded by the outfitter after 10 days before the trip. This worked very well, we wound up with 14 for the trip.

 

Also, during the summer, our Troop Committee changed over to all new folks, a couple of whom have been with the Troop for years and just now decided to get involved. Training for all of them is coming up in September and October and hopefully they will work together and take some of the burden off me and my husband.

 

I am really looking forward to September when we again have our annual planning campout. The guys have already started talking about ideas for next year. Maybe it will be our best year yet!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CNYScouter]

Am I moving too fast?

I didnt think so when they took the initiative to start a plan in writing. It is just frustrating when no one signs up to go.

 

I dont have a problem WAGing the tour permit however having young ladies in attendance I do need the name of an adult female that will be going which I cant seem to get a commitment from.

 

Eamonn , I had this exact conversation with my wife this morning. We talked about scheduling and going on activities and if only one or two show, thats a start.

 

Last year an announcement was made about the time it was going to take to process a tour permit.

Filing a tour permit is no longer a 5 minute process.

It now can take up to two weeks because our council now verifies the drivers license and insurance information.

(and they wonder why the council is having financial difficulties)

 

I was told this is due to an incident with a unit putting a parent on as a driver.

After this person got into an accident it was found out they had a suspended license, no insurance and they were driving a vehicle with an expired inspection.

 

I am worried about things becoming boring.

I've heard of Crews where the members say there is nothing to do yet no one signs up for activities when they are planned and the crew ends up folding because they never do anything.

 

I guess this might make the topic of planning and commitment something to discuss at the ship meeting next week.