Question about Charter Org. and split Scout units....

[CookieScout]

recently, several leaders of an existing Cub Scout Pack, voted to leave their Chartered organization, and moved from one Church to another local church. However, at least a couple of registered leaders that were in that Pack and members of this existing church, and the COR voted to try to keep a Pack at said Church. The majority of leaders that wanted to move, were told to by DE to go ahead and needed to change locations with about a month left in the school year, but existing CO would retain tenure status in the council. The former leaders that moved, took all supplies and funds with them to the other CO. The existing CO is now making plans with the few leaders that wanted to stay with additional leadership to get rolling again. My question that some wanted some help with, who rightfully owns the supplies and funds that were originally with last years unit? And can anyone provide BSA policy links to prove it?

 

YIS...

Cookie

[FScouter]

Units don't move. Individuals may transfer their membership to another unit, but that is all. THe charter for a pack is with the chartered organization. The CO owns the unit number, the unit flag, the unit equipment, and the unit money. Members of a unit own nothing but their registration.

 

The CO may choose to give the property to the new CO, or not. In this case why would the CO want to give away the property when the intention was to keep the pack going with new membership?

 

The charter agreement makes it clear that the agreement is between BSA and the CO. There is no agreement with leaders, which by the way are selected/approved by the CO.

 

Put the burden of proof on the leaders and CO of the new pack to show where it is written they can take the property of another CO's pack.

[John-in-KC]

What FScouter said, in general.

 

As always, we don't necessarily have all the story here.

 

If a Chartered Partner is living up to its side of the agreement between it and the local Council, then this DE is out of school. The Chartered Partner can make havoc for the local Council. OTOH, if the CP has not met its obligations...

 

Not being an attorney, nor playing one on TV, I cannot tell how the issue of property and funds will play out. In general, though, property and funds are the Chartered Partner's for use in the Scouting program. Only if a CP abandons its charter is it to turn over property and funds for redistribution.

 

That's at least what the Council COR trainer taught me.

[Hunt]

What the others have said is right, but there can be some complications. For example, if the unit had funds that were earmarked for particular boys, they may have some claim to it (this isn't too likely for a pack). Also, some of the supplies may really be "loaned" from leaders--my son's troop "has" a canoe like this. Finally, if the original COR allowed them to take the supplies and funds, it may be too late to do anything about it.

[EagleInKY]

Just to back up what has been said. The property belongs to the CO, not the leaders. When they "voted to leave their Chartered organization, and moved from one Church to another local church.", they really simply decided to change units. And, just as if any individual decided to move from one unit to another, they have no claims on the unit's property.

 

Sidenote - when an entire unit moves from one CO to another, the property nearly always ends up going with the unit. That's probably because most COs don't want the bad press/public pressure of not allowing the unit to keep its gear. But this is completely within the control of the CO, not the leaders.

[dbraxtonw]

I am an attorney; before that I was a professional scouter. My experience has touched on this area but I am no expert on the subject. I do not recall this being covered in my professional training (but that is going on 30 years ago.)

 

About 20 years ago, a benefactor wanted to set up a trust fund to be used to purchase equipment for the troop of which I am Scoutmaster. Up to that point, I had always been under the impression that "unit property" actually belonged to the chartered organization, which would retain the property if the unit disbanded. Somewhere in the process of researching to find that in writing, I was quite surprised to find that unit property goes to the *council* if the unit ceases to exist (which appears *not* to be the case in this thread). (That is not inconsistent with "redistribution" in case of an "abandoned charter," as John-in-KC described from COR training.) I can not tell you today where I found it. With that in mind, the COR (also an attorney) drew the decalration of trust with a reverter clause, directing the money to the chartered organization in the event that the troop ceased to exist.

 

As pointed out previously, we may not have the whole story here, but the facts that the DE wanted the departing leaders to "move" as soon as possible and said that the chartered organization would retain it's tenure suggests two things: The DE agrees that everyone will be better off if they move, and the DE wants to keep a pack at the chartered organization. That would most likely be done with the folks who are "moving" becoming a new pack and the chartered organization reorganizing its pack. It is possible that the DE is doing just that with the paperwork but the individuals involved in the "move" are not aware of the technicalities of the chartering process. What we do not know is whether the DE provided any advice concerning the supplies and funds.

 

If the chartered organization allowed the "moving" group to keep or take the property with them, I agree that there probably isn't much they can do at this point. If the "moving" group just picked it all up and took it with them without the permission of the chartered organization, it should go back to the chartered organization.(This message has been edited by dbraxtonw)

[grogaardk]

What about a Den Leader that has a control problem? We have a Pack that hasn't forwarded any new Scouts to the Troop in a couple of years. Before this year's Blue and Gold, the WEBELEO Den Leader decided to start up his own Troop. He claimed that one of his reasons was due to a "adult conflict" with one of the members of the Troop committee and he didn't want to get involved with the Troop. He also stated that the current Troop program wasn't high adventure enough.

The Pack in question has always been linked to the Troop in town. Because of our location, the population doesn't support multiple Troops. Some of our Troops in our county are Patrol size.

When is National and the local Council going to wake up and look at the demographics? Why are they always concerned over metrics?

If this Leader had a issue with another adult, so what. Boy Scouts are about kids not adults. As far as high adventure, once boys reach 14 they can do high adventure. But if you decicde to start another Troop because the adult wants to be "in charge", that hurts the bridging Troop, the other Scouts in the Troop (because they can't work on their leadership skills), and eventually they are signing the death warrant of the Troop.

 

[John-in-KC]

Mr or Ms grogaardk,

 

Welcome to the campfire. Coffee's on the rock over there.

 

If a leader wants to create a new unit, he or she needs to find:

 

- A Chartered Partner willing to live up to the obligations of the BSA Charter Agreement, to include an IH and a COR.

 

- 5 youth

 

- 1 Program officer

- (??? Someone back check me) 1 Asst program officer

- 1 Committee Chairman

- 2 other Members of Committee

 

and the necessary funds to put the unit onto the books.

 

Those are the standards...

[scoutldr]

This issue has been discussed before. See, to wit, http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=114341#id_114346

The exact language from the "Rules and Regulations" (which we mere volunteer mortals never see) are as follows:

Rules and Regulations, Article XI, Section 1, Local Council and Unit Finance Clause 2, Disposition of Unit Funds Upon Termination of Local Council or Unit (b) Unit Obligations.

In the event of the dissolution of a unit or the revocation or lapse of its charter, the unit committee shall apply unit funds and property to the payment of unit obligations and shall turn over the surplus, if any, to the local council, if there is one, or if there is no local council, dispose of the same in accordance with the direction of the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America. In the case of a chartered organization, any funds or equipment which may have been secured as property of the unit shall be held in trust by the chartering organizaiton or the chartered local council, as may be agreed upon, pending reorganization of the unit or for the promotion of the program of the Boy Scouts of America. © Administration of Local Funds by Corporation. Any property or funds acquired by the Executive Board upon the dissolution of a Scouting unit or local council shall be administered so as to make effective, as far as posssible, the intentions and wishes of the donors. (d) Special Funds. Special funds created for specific purposes, acquired by a unit or local council, shall be vested in a bank, trust company or BSA Intravest Trust, in trust for the use of the unit or the local council, in accordance with the wishes of the donors, with the provision in the statement of the conditions governing the admiinistering of the funds that in the event of the dissolution of the unit or council or revocation or lapse of its charter said trustee or trustees will, after satisfying any clams against such fund, turn over to the Boy Scouts of America the balance for use by the Boy Scouts of America for the benefit of Scouting in such locality and for the specific purposes for which the fund was granted. If there is no suitable opportunity for the use of said fund in such locality, it may be used elsewhere.

As I said in the previous thread,  "the DE should sit down with the original CO and ascertain their intentions of continuing their affiliation with the BSA. It is the DE's job to "talk a blue streak" to get them to maintain the charter and not give up the unit. If they intend to reform a unit in the future, the CO can retain the assets "in trust" for that future unit. If they have no such intention, the assets revert to the Council for use as they see fit. That's the terms of the Charter agreement that they signed when your unit was formed. Under NO circumstances do any of the assets belong to the Scouts or Unit leaders to do with as THEY see fit. If the CO wants to allow scouts to transfer their unit accounts (if any) to their new unit, that can be negotiated, I guess."

NOTE:  In the former thread referenced above, it seems to possible in some states for a scout unit to incorporate as a legal entity, in which case, ownership of the assets may be different.  In most cases, however, a unit is not a legal entity and does not "own" anything.  They are merely a youth program operated and owned by the CO, similar to a church youth group.