Scout with a knife!

[Lynda J]

I just discussed this issue with Kevin and his opinion from a Life, almost Eagle, Scouts point of view is that both boys should have to appear before the PLC. That both should be diciplined but to different degrees. With the Scout who pulled the knife having a much harder punishment.

 

This is from the point of view of a 13 year old.

 

We use student courts in schools. Let the boys deal with this with the support and help of the adults.

 

In my years of teaching I learned very fast that kids can be much harder of each other that the adults would have been on them.

[rat1571]

i must say that the ADD or ADHD thing has gone WAY out of control. however, i can sympathize a little with the scout. myself being ADHD since i was 7 (now 21) i understand that sometimes it is hard to control your actions when you cant even focus on your own thoughts. But in all seriousness pulling a knife is not something an ADHD kid would do. Out of anger maybe but not because of ADHD. i remember that i got on peoples nerves all the time. and when someone did something back to me i always got some kind of punishment for instigating. no one has ever pulled a knife on me so i dont know how i would handle this.

 

Pete this is a serious issue. in the old days your scout could have been asked not to come to the first few scout meetings. but today i think i wouldmaybe take his position away if he had one because i would think that the scouts wouldn't want a kid to lead them if he is going to act like that. Another thing i would do is take his totin-chip away and tell him he cant get it back for some time. and according to BSA he must do the training again.

 

also the bullying must be delt with to help prevent future incedents. this will be tough but it must be delt with. Good Luck

[PeteM]

Well,

Here's the results of our committee meeting:

 

The scout that started the problem was given 1 month off from all scouting and scout related programs with an additional 1 month probation.

 

The other scout was given 2 months off from all scouting and scout related programs with a year probation. If he does anything that solicts the action of the committee, he will be told to leave the troop as well as the scouting program with no chance for reinstatement.

 

I feel that these are rather harsh punishments for both boys, considering that no where in the troop by-laws does it even state that the committee would even hand out any kind of punishment, that (according to the by-laws), it is up to the PLC for actions reguarding disipline.

 

Sorry for taking so long to post the rsults, but it has been a crazy summer.

 

Pete

 

 

[evmori]

A year probation seems a little stiff but other than that it seems appropriate.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Sprocket]

"he will be told to leave the troop as well as the scouting program with no chance for reinstatement."

 

-----

 

I fail to see how a troop committee could keep the boy and his parents from signing up with another troop. Sure, they might be able to make life difficult and refuse to transfer over his advancement records, but I don't really see it as being their call to kick him completely out of scouting, unless the district or council were involved.

[Aquila calva]

Where in the Scouting liturature does it say anything about troop committees handing out suspensions and probations to scouts? Can anyone point to these directives? Maybe I missed it!

 

It sounds like the troop committee is getting Boy Scouting mixed up with the local school system's discipline/behavior policies.

 

This is Boy Scouting! Let's do what we can to follow the program as described in the Scouting publications. Again, maybe I missed it.

[PeteM]

UPDATE

The scout that started it all got into trouble a few times at school for fighting, one time even pushing another student down the stairs.

He was suspended for that one.

 

He got into a fight on a campout (He started it this time by cutting the lines on another Scout's tent (that he considered a "baby"), but unknown to him, the boy's father was in the tent at the and caught him cutting the other side of the tent), and is now on the highest form of disipline that our troop can do, which is take HIS Totin' Chip away, and the PLC has decided that if he does things against the Scout Law, (ie fighting, willfully damanaging equipment, threating another Scout, he will be told to leave the event with a parent and he will be suspended for a period of 2 months. He decided to just quit, stating that scouting is just for a bunch of losers and he is glad to be out of the program.

 

The other scout, (my son), has changed as well, is now a Star scout, patrol leader, and he earned his totin' chip back too. We seem to have his ADHD under control (if one can really say that), he is using a timed release medicine, and he is improving a lot. In school, his teachers have noticed a big improvement over last year in his behavior.

 

We also have found that kids with ADD/ADHD, that toward the end of their medication day, when their meds are wearing off and they are going toward a "melt-down", we have found that caffine helps calm these kids down. We give them Mtn. Dew, Jolt soda, coffee, etc. (After explaining to the parents and showing them studies that support the facts), the scouts calm right down and usually want to go to bed early.

 

Thanks for all of your help.

 

Pete

[evmori]

As the saying goes

 

"It all comes out in the wash"

 

Glad to here everything worked out, Pete.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[DanKroh]

"We also have found that kids with ADD/ADHD, that toward the end of their medication day, when their meds are wearing off and they are going toward a "melt-down", we have found that caffine helps calm these kids down. We give them Mtn. Dew, Jolt soda, coffee, etc. (After explaining to the parents and showing them studies that support the facts), the scouts calm right down and usually want to go to bed early."

 

Yep, isn't the paradoxical effect of ADHD medications wonderful? Give the kid a stimulant, and it calms them down. Caffeine also being a stimulant, mimics the effect of the ADHD medications. If the parents are on board with it, I think it is a great way to help these kids make it through the evening. One suggestion, though, might be to try to get them to take the caffeine without sugar (they do make Diet Mt. Dew and Diet Jolt, or coffee with Equal) because the sugar can aggravate hyperactivity in some kids, or can lead to another crash, of blood sugar, after the sugar rush from the soda has worn off.

 

[John-in-KC]

PeteM tried to say:

 

"...he will be told to leave the troop as well as the scouting program with no chance for reinstatement."

 

I really, truly hope Pete, that you are actively discussing this issue with your COR and your Unit Commissioner.

 

YOUR UNIT DOES NOT HAVE THE RIGHT OR PRIVILEGE TO REVOKE A YOUTH MEMBERSHIP IN THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA.

 

That is reserved solely to the local Council. From my experience, it's for the most egregious of violations, including YP and improprieties with funds.

 

You may:

 

1) Ask a Scout to leave your unit.

 

That's it. If you refuse to surrender his records to a gaining Troop, that unit can recover at least his last rank from ScoutNet.

 

Tread with care. Your Troop Committee may be the ones finding themselves in hot water with the local Council.

 

By the way, if you ask them to leave the unit, you also get to refund their pro-rata share of unit dues and fees.

[MollieDuke]

Hi Pete,

I agree that I am sick of ADD/ADHD being used as a pass for poor parenting. That said, I work with Behavior Disability children and 99% of my students have ADD/ADHD and anger management issues.

 

That said, I wish I had more parents like you. You seem to realize that your son has problems particularly when his meds run out of juice in the evenings. That's great! Most of my parents, if they even show up for a conference, just say that it's my job to control these kids and they basically don't care (which just makes them more angry and hurt, frankly).

 

I do feel, though, that we are missing a HUGE chunk of info which Pete provided us......

 

Pete, Jr. was acting out by hitting a tree which was annoying to Boy Two. Boy Two asked him to stop. Pete, Jr chose to continue making Boy Two angry (even after apparently Boy Two was having issues of his own all day, but Daddy Pete doesn't say why). At some point, Boy Two completely lost it and kicked Pete, Jr. from a chair in order to make him stop. Boy Two was at the end of his anger management rope and yet, no one seemed to have addressed this child's issue.

 

Daddy Pete is great in saying his child was wrong and taking responsibility for the KNIFE. We miss the boat a smidge, though, when we add "reasons" or "excuses" or whatever by saying "well, these kids have special problems at the end of their meds" or "it's hard to deal with these kids 24/7". While TRUE, certainly, it doesn't negate the fact that Boy TWO had no patience left. He was drained of patience. His energy had been drained from him and he could stand no more. No matter WHY, he had NO MORE COPING SKILLS left to deal with Pete, Jr at that particular time.

 

I think Daddy Pete knows this. I think Daddy Pete will be a very good SM because he knows this. However, that said, I think we all need to understand that it's not JUST ADD/ADHD kids who need understanding. Those they annoy, bug, hit, punch, bite, break things of, etc need our understanding as well.

 

If YOU have trouble and get "tired" of dealing with your ADD/ADHD kid at home 24/7/365 and you love your child unconditionally, and wouldn't give them up for the world, can you imagine how frustrating this is for another CHILD without fully formed anger management skills of their own and absolutely no vested interest in your child? (or their teachers, Scoutmasters, Sunday School Superintendents....for that matter).

 

I work with BD kids all day. It's so draining. I do it because I want them to be productive members of society one day. Not all of them will achieve it, but for those who do, it's a wonderful thing. Just don't forget those "receivers" of their poor choices who must deal with this ADD/ADHD behavior and have no skills to do so.

 

Good job, Daddy Pete, for taking action with your son so quickly. I'm sure you'll be working with him on his annoying behavior so this never happens again, but I also hope you work with the other boys in coping skills as well.

[ASM915]

PeteM,

Know what your going through with the son.

To all you parents out there that have boys (and girls) with the cursed ADD/ADHD, if the child has MOOD SWINGS, SUDDEN BURST OF ANGER, MELT DOWNS WHEN THE MED'S WHERE OFF, be sure you are actually dealing with ADD/ADHD. I have 16 1/2 years experience as a parent with a child, from 3-8 y/o being diagnosed as ADHD and from 8 y/o to present with Bipolar Disorder with ADHD Tendencies.

 

The difference? Prepubescent it is literally impossible to differentiate between the two. 50% prepubescent bipolar childen are misdiagnosed as ADHD. Two reasons. One, the child appears very hyper due to the rapid cycling mood swings, several times in 1 hour, therefore mimicking ADHD. The second, until recently the psychiatric community refused to believe that a child could be Bipolar until they went through puberty, and some still do.

 

How can you tell? Something just doesn't sit quite right or fit the normal ADHD profile; mood swings, angry outbursts, the child does not really respond to the med's the way they are suppose to, threatening to hurt themselves and or others, and I'm talking at very early ages, 3,4,5.

 

Pete. You said pulling a knife isn't like an ADD/ADHD kid. Your right.

 

MaScout, the scout grabbing your hands an ramming the knife in his chest. Guess What?

 

Our youngest was and still on occasion can be a handful. We always questioned ADHD because I'm ADD and my brother is ADHD. During college research, my brother was able to trace the ADD back 2 more generations. When my youngest, Dan was 5 or 6 we finally broke down and started the Ritalin path. As the Ritalin went up additional med's were add to handle mood swings and agitation. The regimen got so complicated on what he had to take when, that he was finally admitted at 8 y/o to go off all med's cold turkey and start all over. We were told by the doctor that "I'm going to put him on this old tricyclic antidepressant which for some reason works with these ADHD kids. Why it works we have know idea."

We went through the Psychiatric medicine cabinet from A-Z.

A year or two later a psychologist asked if we had heard of the book "THE BIPOLAR CHILD" by Poupolis and Poupolis. We bought the book and read it. you would have thought that they had taken Dan and put him on stage and wrote down everything he did. It more than fit like a glove.

If you have an ADHD diagnosed child this needs to be mandatory reading.

Your ADD drugs compound the problems because they can cause manic behavior. These are the children you hear about that get worse on the med's.

 

He's on a decent regimen now. It's still enough med's to put half the hospital I work in asleep. When he is late taking his med's, you know it within an hour. Then it takes another half an hour to kick in.

 

Also, Red Dye (and just reported in the last few weeks Yellow Dye) in certain children can screw with their Neurotransmitter chemicals in the brain, and yes they get hyper, agitated and climb the walls. Raw Dairy can also cause the same symptomology and look both like ADHD.

 

Luckily the other leaders in our troop are great with trying to understand and work with Dan. His school is also set up as a special needs troop that works with ADD/ADHD, Bipolar, Aspergers and some others. Talk about leaders being put to the test.

 

Conditions shouldn't be used as an excuse for bad behavior, maybe the root cause. The leadership needs to be made aware by the parents or at least asking the parents at registration if there is anything that we need to know about the boy so as to try to understand him and help him.

 

If anyone has any questions or would like more specifics about the difference between ADHD and Bipolar symptomology and how to work with theses scouts pleas contact me privately and I be more then glad to assist you.

[ASM915]

Forgot one little tibbit. If your child might be reacting to Red Dye, Make sure that you have your MD check the ingredients in the medications. A lot of med.'s have Red Dye in them even though they are Blue, Purple, Orange, Yellow Pink, etc this was a major cause of our trip through the list of Psych. med's that didn't work or made things worse.

[C-BOLT]

The knife story is interesting. We had a scout in our troop, who pulled a knife on me for yelling at him. It was a long time ago, and for whatever reason I was "acting" SPL at a summer camp. We had to send our dinner crew down to the dining hall, and a certain scout wouldn't listen to me. I kept telling him, but it wouldn't work. So I yelled at him, basically saying my way or the high way. He pulled out his knife, but before he could open it I pushed him to the ground and kicked his knife away from him. I said some things that I probably shouldn't have said, and then our SM finally saw what happened, came over and broke it up.

 

Well, this is what happened. The scout who pulled the knife on me has a father who is an ASM, he was at camp at the time. This scout, gets 2 excuses, first the "HE'S A FIRST YEAR" and also the "ADHD" thing. I also got it from the kids dad, telling me not to yell, and be "scout like." Instead of arguing I just ignored him and went back to doing what I was doing. My SM just told me not to yell at him and what not, and told ME to cool it. As far as punishment, there was none, and it seemed that the leaders were extra nice to the boy who pulled the knife on me.

 

To this day, I don't get along with that ASM at all, and choose to "respectfully" disagree with him.