Scout with a knife!

[funscout]

Eammon,

 

That's a great web-site. I bookmarked it so I can share it with other leaders if need be. I don't forsee any problems with my son's future troop, since most of the leaders already know him, and have helped me with him at Camporee, etc.

 

My son has been known to tell me that are some benefits to having ADHD, because he has plenty of energy for soccer, etc.

[scoutldr]

funscout: what makes you think I didn't have an ADHD son? He's now 28 and a successful manager of a country club.

[funscout]

scoutldr:

 

My mistake! I'm sure you can tell this is a hot button issue for me. I jumped to conclusions based on your statement of hating when people use ADHD as an excuse for bad behavior. I personally have never heard anyone use it as an excuse, but rather as an explanantion. I've worked with many parents whose kids have ADHD, and as you know first hand, they need our support big time. If these kids are going to be successful adults, like your child, then they need all the help they can get. By the way, I'm glad to hear your success story. Every time I hear one of these, I have hope for my son.

 

My sister is 47 and she probably had (still has) ADHD. She and the rest of our family agree with this, but back in the 1960's nothing was done for kids like her. She struggled terribly all through school, despite the fact that she has a high IQ, and is very creative. After 7 long years of college, she finally graduated with her teaching degree, and is a fantastic teacher. I've seen her in action - ACTION, being the key word! She knows how to reach the difficult kids because that's what she was like. Unfortunately she's not quite as successful as your adult child, because her impulsivity causes her to spend more money than she makes. She ends up working 2-3 part-time jobs, in addition to her teaching job, just to support her habit of living beyond her means. We all relize this is her ADHD at work. What a vicious circle. Her ADHD allows her to have the energy to work all these jobs, so she continues with her impulse buying, and then wonders why she never has the time or money to do things she wants to do.

 

As you can guess, we are really working hard to teach financial responsibility to our kids, after seeing what their aunt goes through.

 

I guess God REALLY wanted to immerse me in the ADHD life, since He gave me a sister with ADHD, lead me to work with these kids, and then gave me one of my own! I wonder what He has planned for me next?

[Aquila calva]

Getting back to the original post for another view..

 

Some good advice and comments have been given on this event. I will add some comments from the point of view of a committee chair who had to deal with a similar situation several years ago. I never want to go through that again, to be sure.

 

You handled the situation very well and your son knew immediately he had done something very wrong. It really gets extra hard to deal with when the scout doesnt realize or wont acknowledge he has done something wrong. After all, they see such behavior all the time on TV and in movies. Whats wrong with it, they ask, nobody got hurt.

 

After an incident like this it is a good idea to have a follow-up meeting with the scouts involved, and their parents or guardians, to make plans for moving forward. Also, help the scouts involved talk to each other about what appropriate behavior should be, relating it to the Scout Oath and Law. This is best done by the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters. This could be looked at as an expanded Scoutmaster conference.

 

Pete, you are new here, and your story hits on an important topic, the troop committees proper role in this type of situation.

 

From PeteMs post, the asst. committee chair said

both boys would have to appear before the troop committee.

 

Be careful with this. The troop committee is not a Board of Inquisition. The scouts should definitely not be placed in front of a large group of adults who have volunteered to fill roles including treasurer, secretary and equipment coordinator. Dealing with an individual scouts occasional inappropriate behavior is not what the whole troop committee does for the troop. For the sake of the scouts and the troop, a preadolescent or adolescent scout should never be placed in front the whole adult committee for some kind of question and answer session because of a misdeed. In our troop this could be a group of up to 12 adults. Even an Eagle Board of Review has only a few adults review the scout.

 

Several others made comments about the committee including two, very experienced, contributors.

 

From SemperParatus

Sounds like its been handled by the committee and there is no 'proceed next' to be done, at least officially.

 

From Eamonn

While I think the Committee Person may have made a few mistakes, for the most part what he or she did was in keeping with the guidelines of the BSA.

It is up to the Committee to deal with both Lad's.

As active Leaders we at times find it hard to allow the Committee to do what they are there to do.

 

These statements seem to be pointing in the wrong direction and may be giving the wrong impression about the role of the troop committee.

 

This could lead to this scenario: We let the scouts have knives. The Scoutmaster, ASMs and older scouts train the scouts in the proper use of the knives. As soon as there is an incident of bad behavior involving that knife, we turn to the committee members and say you deal with it. By the time the secretary, treasurer and equipment coordinator get together for their meeting, it is probably long after the incident and the committee is learning about it second and third hand. This type of system is not a good way to deal with problems in a Scout troop. (One good thing about your situation is that you turned to other leaders at camp and asked for help and guidance and then immediately followed that direction. The fact there was a member of the troop committee at camp was only coincidental. The other leaders could, and should have come to the same decision based on what was best for the troop and the individual scouts, at that time.)

 

Teaching good behavior is part of the Scouting program.It is part of the trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly part of the program. This is taught primarily by the Scoutmaster, the Assistant Scoutmasters and the youth leaders in a troop.

 

The troop committee is the troops Board of Directors. The committee primarily handles the operational, organizational and business aspects of a troop. The Scoutmaster needs to keep the committee informed about what is going on in the troop, including specific behavioral issues. That is one reason the Scoutmasters attendance at the committee meetings is so important. But the committee takes action on behavioral issues only after the Scoutmaster has exhausted other means of dealing with problem behavior including involving the parents and guardians in finding a solution or new direction. The troop committee is not some kind of judge and jury.

 

The troop committee becomes actively involved in the process when the scouts behavior does not improve. Discipline problems that might lead to a boys permanent removal from the troop should be handled by the Scoutmaster and the troop committee and should always involve the boys parents or guardian. (Scoutmaster Handbook, 2005 printing, page 133, under the heading Inappropriate Behavior. In the 2003 printing it is on page 131. There is also a section on Dealing with Behavioral Concerns on the following page.)

 

When a scout infringes on the points of the Scout Oath and Law, who deals with it? The answer is the program leaders in the troop headed by the Scoutmaster and including the Assistant Scoutmasters, and the youth leaders. These are the leaders who work one-on-one with the scouts.

 

The troop committee (as a group) helps the Scoutmaster do his job, but doesnt normally work individually with the scouts, except in the context of the advancement Board of Review where a few members of the committee conduct the review.

 

There is also some more information in the Guide to Safe Scouting:

 

Here is a link to the section titled Youth Member Behavior Guidelines

 

http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=by

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

[PeteM]

WOW!!!

All of this great help for this problem. Thanks.

 

Question for Aquila calva: "That helps with what I should do with my son (BTW, in the latest version of the SM Handbook, the section on Inapropriate Behavior" is now found on page 133.

 

That being said, do you have any suggestions for the scout that apparently started this whole affair? It seems that most of the postings, except for those from Lisabob and ScoutNut, all zero in on my son's behavior (not that he is in the clear, not by a long shot), any advice on how to deal with him?

 

Also, since the incident involved my son, I can't very well handle it myself, not without appearing to show favioritism, should I turn the matter over to the PLC (the other boy is a PL), or should I turn it over to a couple of my assistants?

 

Thanks again,

 

Pete

[Lisabob]

Pete, I'm still a little unclear about what the other scout in this situation did. From your post I get that he was annoyed by your son's pounding of the stick against the tree. He kicked your son out of his chair (literally?). He ran. He ended up in your son's tent somehow. You mention he had been unruly and disrespectful earlier in the day. What does that entail? Had he done anything major, or just been a little sour and off-kilter all day? Had he been warned or talked to about his attitude already? Were there other circumstances? There are many levels of potential behavior here, which could merit different kinds of responses.

 

On one hand I can imagine that toward the end of the week, all the kids were a little over-tired, hot and out of sorts, and this was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. The other kid lost his temper and ended up running around the campsite, being a bit unruly but not really egging on your son - it just turned out that he was the wrong kid in the wrong place at the wrong time. In that case, fitting punishment might be pretty limited. A service project together with your son (and appropriate supervision), as I think someone else suggested, seems quite in order.

 

On the other hand, I can imagine a situation where this other boy was intentionally on your son's nerves all day long, culminating in a decidedly-less-than-appropriate response to your son's mildly annoying behavior. In that case then maybe a SM conference (not you - another ASM) or a BOR with him (and not the whole committee) might be in order to discuss his behavior too. Others with more experience in this kind of thing than me, I hope and expect, will likely suggest where to go from here as well.

 

Keep in mind, it was a learning experience of sorts for your son - it should hopefully be a learning experience for this other boy too, not just a punishment.

 

Boy this stuff is tough. But then, what did James Madison say? Something about, if men were angels?

 

Lisa'bob

[PeteM]

Pete, I'm still a little unclear about what the other scout in this situation did. From your post I get that he was annoyed by your son's pounding of the stick against the tree. He kicked your son out of his chair (literally?). He ran. He ended up in your son's tent somehow. You mention he had been unruly and disrespectful earlier in the day. What does that entail? Had he done anything major, or just been a little sour and off-kilter all day? Had he been warned or talked to about his attitude already? Were there other circumstances? There are many levels of potential behavior here, which could merit different kinds of responses.

 

Yep, he reached over and fliped my son's chair over, dumping him onto the ground. That's when he took off running. My son got up and went to his tent. The other boy came by, went to my son's tent (he said to see his friend), and my son said for him to leave. The other boy did not, stating that it was a free country and he could go where he wanted to.

 

Pete

[Eagledad]

>>Teaching good behavior is part of the Scouting program.It is part of the trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly part of the program. This is taught primarily by the Scoutmaster, the Assistant Scoutmasters and the youth leaders in a troop.

[Mr.Mal]

Greetings,

I have been following this thread ever since I got back from summer camp.

This story is almost identical to the problem that I encountered this past week, except for my son was singing from a book my Advancement Chairman gave him to go over to pick out some songs for the troop to sing at our campfire.

 

Amazing how these situations seem to follow trends, isn't it?

 

Anyway, I will be using the suggestions that have been posted here in our situation, except for the part in dealing with my son, instead of me, it will be one of my Assistant Scoutmasters, since I am too close to the situation.

 

Thanks

 

John

 

One thought on edit:

 

Eagledad,

I'm sure that when you say that you sit down with the Scout alone, there are other adults within listening distance so there will be 2 leaders deep.(This message has been edited by Mr.Mal)

[Lynda J]

You said the other boy had been out of control all day and had been unruley and disrespectful to the other boy and adults. Is he ADHD? Could that explain his behaviour.

 

By the way. I have lived with ADHD. Had a foster daughter for 2 years that was ADHD. My brother is also ADHD. So I do understand. As for not hearing anyone use the excuse of ADHD for bad behaviour.

Had one mother tell me point blank that we couldn't correct her son because he was ADHD and simply didn't go by other peoples rules. He ended up nearly killing a kid with a bat because he got mad.

It can be colored any way you want. This boy still pulled a weapon on another boy.

[SR540Beaver]

funscout,

 

I have to agree with Lynda here. I have seen ADHD used as an excuse rather than an explanation numerous times. We already knew the boy(s) had ADHD and that it was the contributing factor to the behavior. But I've seen too many parents who excuse the behavior rather than deal with it and expect the same from teachers, coaches and leaders. Maybe it is in the eye of the beholder. What one person considers an explanation, another considers an excuse.

[Aquila calva]

In following up on an incident involving bad behavior, get the best leaders you have to help deal with it. These can be SM, ASM, or MC. Perhaps you have a Chaplain on your committee who has some training in dealing with these sorts of issues. Involve the parents of the other boy, too. Be sure they know what is going on. Create an environment where the issues can be dealt with in a fair manner relating them to the Scout Oath and Law. And make the meeting(s) fairly short. There should be no need to get into a play-by-play, or a he-said, he-said replay of the incident. Since your son was involved, you may want to ask a couple of other adult leaders to address the issues with the two boys. (Your son may appreciate the chance to talk to a couple of other adults, too.) You could attend the beginning of the meeting and then excuse yourself to give the boys a chance to talk with the other adults. You should make it clear to the scouts, and the other leaders, what your position is on behavior issues. You are the Scoutmaster.

 

The PLC needs to know what is going on and what kinds of things they can do to help avoid a repeat of the incident. The more good ideas they come up with on their own the better. But they need to be taught, too, otherwise they just repeat what they have learned on TV or from their home environment, and that, sometimes, can be not good. A lot will depend on the maturity level of your SPL and the rest or your PLC. And since the other scout involved is a patrol leader, sounds like there is plenty of room for growth. There always is.

 

Sometimes, when you are dealing with a scout who displays bad behavior, and you try to involve his parents in a solution, you find out where the child learned the bad behavior in the first place. This can be particularly difficult. Get help from your other trusted leaders!

 

And then sometimes you find out the parents are as good as they can be and should be part of the leadership team. Then you recruit them and hand them a leader application.

 

[John-in-KC]

PeteM,

 

Like so many others, welcome to the forums.

 

Reading Aquila Calva's post, I think he may have a point about the Scouts appearing before the Committee. There's a Scouting tool, part of the Adult Association method, to help with this: It's called a Board of Review. BORs don't just have to happen at rank advancement. This is an ideal time for both young men to appear.

 

One consequence I would seriously explore, with each of these young men, either in SM conference or BOR, is re-setting their Scout Spirit tenure clocks. Can any of us here honestly say these young men showed Scout Spirit?

 

If your local County offers jail visits as part of consequence management for youthful offenders (Scared Straight), this may be another opportunity.

[funscout]

PeteM and Mr. Mal,

 

I applaud you two for coming forward with your stories about your own sons. Normally we would have heard this story from a different point of view, such as another leader saying, "SM's son pulled a knife at camp!" It shows that you truly care about your sons, since you are not excusing the behavior, but seeking how to correct the behavior, given the extra challenges (ADHD) your sons have.

 

As for me never hearing other parents try to excuse their kid's behavior due to ADHD... I've been thinking about that. Maybe it's the way that I dealt with the parents. I taught them from the start, that ADHD is not an excuse, but an explanantion for why some behaviors occur in their kids, but not in non-ADHD kids. I guess the parents never had a chance to pull the "excuse" with me, since I sympathized with them, but also let them know that we couldn't excuse the behavior, but needed to find ways to correct it. Also, since having an ADHD child of my own, people who know me know that I do not use it as an excuse, so I can see why they would never try to use it as an excuse with me. I guess I've been fortunate that the parents that I have dealt with have been like PeteM and Mr. Mal.

 

I did work in a school that had severely behavior disordered kids. Some had ADHD, some had Conduct Disorder or many combinations of disorders. Less likely than hearing these parents excuse the behavior, we saw them modelling bad behavior. Sometimes when the parents came to pick up their child they yelled, cussed, and tried to become physically abusive to their kids, because they couldn't control their own anger. We had to call the police on occasion, because of the parent's behavior. As you can imagine, many of these kids were in, or ended up in foster care. I would have preferred to have parents who needed to be taught that ADHD is not an excuse, over the parents who agreed their kids' behavior was wrong, but then continued to model bad behavior themselves.

[Aquila calva]

When a scout displays really bad behavior, it is important to inform the parents or guardians and include them in a plan for improvement. Scout leaders should try to do what they can to help the scout find better ways of dealing with a given situation. This process of behavior intervention should not be confused with a Board of Review. When adult leaders, or older scouts like the SPL, are dealing with a behavior issue many aspects of the Scouting program can be used to help. Including some discussion about Scout Spirit is certainly appropriate.

 

Just dont call this process a Board of Review. The BOR has other important purposes primarily related to a scouts advancement.