Eagle Dilemma

[slontwovvy]

Thanks for the thoughts.

 

As a clarification to eamonn, among others, the counselors who signed off on his merit badges are indeed registered counselors. I only know that he failed to complete the requirements because he started those merit badges with me.

[Lenape]

I don't post very often, and certainly not in this area. But I read these forums regularly, and have done so for a long time. I want to make a few comments, both specific to the issue and more generally.

 

Specifically, it is true that a merit badge blue card can only be signed by a registered merit badge counselor, and then must be countersigned by the scoutmaster. So if there was a question or problem with the work done, it would have been incumbent upon the scoutmaster to take the blue card and tell the scout he will get back to him. The the SM could call the counselor, and ask any questions to answer or resolve any doubts he may have. And if he feels that the badge was blatantly not earned, he should not sign the card. If the SM signed the card, the issue is over and there's really no reason to discuss it any further. What would happen if a SM refused to countersign a blue card? I don't know; I never saw it happen. But I suppose like so much else, it could be appealed to district and/or council advancement, and would probably ultimately be approved. By the way, national policy clearly states that a parent, if a registered counselor, can work with his/her own son and sign off the blue card. I know, it doesn't look good, and that's why I refused to do it with my own two sons, but realize it is completely kosher to do so.

 

As to the eagle app and requirements, obviously a SM conference has to be held and signed off. If the SM conducted the conference and signed off, again nothing in the world can be said further against it. If the SM felt he wasn't qualified for Eagle based on spirit, etc, then the SM should not have signed off on the conference. I suppose again this can then be appealed to District/Council advancement, and well, it seems that it is always approved at that level, too. As to the BOR, the troop CC has to sign the app after that occurs. If there's a problem with the BOR as having no troop representation (something I have nover seen in my years as a Scouter), the CC shouldn't be signing off. If the CC did so, again nothing more can be said. Also, this aspect too can be appealed to District/Council, with predictable results.

 

So what happens when an Eagle applicant earns it by sidestepping the troop adult leaders and committeepersons, and gets his final approval from Texas? Not much, now. Most Eagles have a special Court of Honor just for them (as opposed to a general troop court). Your Eagle may find that he has a COH where not everyone is going to show up. Early in my Scouter career I attended and Eagle COH where many of the adult leaders were absent. Since I was new to the troop and barely knew anyone, including the Eagle, I asked an adult I knew what the reson wasy. I was told he that the Eagle was not well liked for a variety of reasons by many of the adults, who chose to show their displeasure by staying away. At the time I thought how awful that was that an adult couldn't just swallow his personal opinion, and support the boy by attending. Now, after many years in Scouting, I can certainly understand whay some adults would stay away from a particular Eagle COH. Still unfortunate, but now more understandable.

 

More generally, I think there is a tendency amongst adults who are old enough to remember "when" (I'm in my 50's) to expect someting more from the advancement process than exists today, and has not existed for many years. We older ones have in our mind's eye the "Norman Rockwell" Eagle Scout, and all that that level of perfection entails. Requirements for advancement are easier now than when we were youth (remember the 2nd class requirement of three 5-mile hikes?). Look, national has made a conscious decision to make things easier and faster for advancement so as to retain membership, something that is an ongoing problem. When I was a youth there was no "First Class First Year" goal, and I fact in my troop almost everyone seemed to advance at about a rank a year. I was a scout for six years, and in my troop, which I consider was a successful troop, we had only three Eagles over that entire length of time, and the youngest was 16. Again folks, let's face it, Scouting advancement today is not what it was long ago, and we have to accept that and work with it. It certainly means boys who come up for Eagle with less than perfect behavior and values, but remember they had no problem making it to Life, and we're all pretty much stuck with the situation of they have their 6 months "active," their 6 months POR, their Eagle project, and their 21 badges. To try to somehow throw roadblocks up at this point is fruitless. If it's a monster, let's at least be adult enought to acknowledge it's a monster we allowed to be created, with national's blessing and guidance. And please take some satisfaction that, for every Eagle who you can't help but wince over, there's at least one Eagle you came across who deserved to be on a Norman Rockwell poster. I have been priviledged to know some.

[Eamonn]

. I only know that he failed to complete the requirements because he started those merit badges with me.

So if you didn't sign the card or issue a partial? And if he didn't complete the requirements.

What happened?

Eamonn.

(I don't know if my little gray cells are 100%)

[scoutldr]

Not sure what this discussion is all about. The Eagle Application cannot be procecessed without the signatures of the Unit Leader (SM or Venturing Advisor) and the Unit Committee Chair. No one else has a vote. If they refuse to sign, the scout should be told the reasons why and that he has the right to appeal to the District Advancement Committee. If this has been an ongoing problem, the scout should have been counselled along the way (Star, Life) and this should come as no surprise. It's not fair to push a scout along by rubber stamping his book and then saying "I don't think you're Eagle material". If he's not Eagle material, then he wasn't Life or Star material, either.

[NeilLup]

An interesting thread.

 

First, MaScout and Lenape, I believe that what you have said is inaccurate. The SM must approve the blue card BEFORE the Scout goes for counseling stating that the Scout is ready to go to the counselor. After that, if the Scout is approved by a registered counselor, the SM and Troop have no prerogative to stop the awarding of the Merit Badge. There is no signing of the card AFTER the badge is awarded. If the Troop believes that a particular counselor has done a poor job, they can tell the district and the person can be removed from MB Counselor status. But that doesn't change the approvals that they have already given.

 

Second, the SM and CC can decline to sign the application. As ScoutLdr has said, the Scout can then contact the district and request a Board of Review. This board should definitely take into account the refusal of the SM and/or CC to sign, but rejection of the Scout is not automatic.

 

I believe that I would contact the District Advancement Chairman and discuss the situation. I would find out why they had scheduled a board and ask that a Troop representative be present. Then, I would see that a detailed letter is written outlining the the pluses and minuses of the Scout and his travelling of the Eagle trail. In particular, I would outline in detail places where the Scout's performance has been been judged deficient, he has been given courses of action and milestones to prove himself and he has failed to do it. The principle is "no surprises" and you need to show that the Scout knew long in advance that he was not meeting the standard, knew what he needed to do and didn't do it. I might suggest that you end the letter, if you wish, with a recommendation to the Board of what further action the Scout would need to do to be considered worthy of being an Eagle Scout. In the letter, acknowledge that the Scout will be travelling until he is 18 and this may mean that he will not earn the Eagle. However, in light of his performance, you do not think that it is fair to anyone, including him, for him to be awarded the Eagle at this time. Be sure that everything in the letter is accurate, fair and objective and opinions are stated as opinions. (I hate to say it, but lawyers do get involved when pushy parents and "piece of work" Scouts are involved.)

 

Talk to the District Advancement person about the letter. I would suggest sending the letter to the Board of Review with a copy to the Scout far enough advance for him to prepare a response. The letter either can be signed by the SM and whomever else wishes, or there can be several letters documenting information.

 

You then have done everything you can. If the boy still is approved, as others have mentioned, he likely would have a lightly attended Court of Honor.

[MaScout]

NeilLup -- Actually, the SM signs the blue card TWICE -- in different places. The first time the SM signs a blue card is PRIOR to the Scout working on the badge. The Scout talks to the SM about earning the MB, then (in a nutshell) the SM recommends a counselor, and signs the blue card on the "front", on the section that is headed "Application for Merit Badge". When the Scout has FINISHED the MB, the counselor keeps his/her section and signs both other portions on the "back"...once on the flip side of the "Application" and once on the "Applicant's Record". BELOW that counselor signature is a place for the Scoutmaster to sign, indicating s/he has received the record. Without that signature, the Scout's record is incomplete.

 

I presume the rest of your message wasn't to me directly. If it was, let me know, & I'll reply... Ma

 

[NeilLup]

Hello MaScout,

 

I don't have a copy of the Application for MB form here and apparently it is not downloadable, so I am sure that the form is exactly as you have described it. However, the SM signing the "applicant's record" is, as I would understand matters, essentially a receipt. It allows the Scout to prove that he has turned the form in. However, it does not represent an after-the-fact approval or confirmation by the SM. I am 100% certain that if a Scoutmaster refused to sign a card which the SM had previously approved and which was signed by a registered counselor, the Scout could appeal to the district (wouldn't needing to do THAT be a pain) and the merit badge would be awarded.

 

If you disagree (or agree) with any of the rest of my post, please do say why.

[Vicki]

Um, I'm looking at a copy of a MB card that I signed for a scout. There is only one line for the SM/Advisor to sign, indicating that the scout is qualified to work toward the MB. There are two places for me to sign - one for the preliminary interview (which is left blank on this card since there wasn't one) and another line where I indicate he has completed the requirements and qualifies for the badge. The next signature line is for the Scout Executive's signature indicating that the MB has been approved and recorded. There is a tab attached for me to keep for my records and another for the council to keep for their records. That's it.

 

I'm betting, though, that different councils have different MB cards. The one I'm looking at has a footnote that specifically identifies it as from BSA/GSLAC.

 

Also, at least in our council, scouts don't necessarily have to go through the SM to get the name of a qualified counselor. The council maintains a web-site, a scout goes there, picks up a name and either calls or e-mails the counselor. No involvement from the SM at all. In fact, the last three scouts I've counseled got my name that way - one said he just went down the list and I was the first one that called back (I was third). Both of the SMs in troops I've been associated with recommend that to their scouts unless they're personally familiar with a specific counselor. In that case they recommend (note: not require) that the scout call that counselor.

 

Getting back to the original post - sounds like it's time for a sit-down with your SM and CC. You can get all the opinions you like, but theirs are the only ones that matter.

 

Vicki (edited for clarity(This message has been edited by Vicki)

[SWScouter]

A copy of the blue card (actually 3 blue cards) can be seen at http://www.meritbadge.com/files/bluecard.pdf

Page 1 is the front, and page 2 is the back. Realize that the page 2 right section is the back of the page 1 left section and vice-versa.

 

SWScouter

[Vicki]

Yep, just like I thought (and posted). Our MB card doesn't look anything like that. Interesting.

 

Looking at it, it does look like the unit leader is only indicating receipt, not approval. "has given me his completed application"

 

Vicki

 

 

[packsaddle]

Looks exactly like every blue card I've seen.