Hazing and Initiations

[mk9750]

As with so many things in Scouting, this is a topic that has no specific answer. Certainly, somewhere on the continum of activities in which Scouts participate, the threshold of good clean fun gets crossed and the activity becomes hazing. And what makes it tougher, to me, is that the same activity could be good fun in one circumstance, and yet hazing in another.

 

Back about 8 years ago, during the first summer camp I attended, I was asked to be the "acting" Scoutmaster for the week. Early in the week, some of the older boys woke to find their underwear up the flag pole. Turns out this was the work of three of the first year Scouts, who worked a pre-emptive strike because they had heard it was going to happen to them. All of the older guys said they had not even thought of doing anything like that. But in any case, this was the cause of tremendous hooting, hollering and laughing during the entire week of camp. "The young guys got the old guys!!!" Now had this been reversed, perhaps it would have amounted to hazing. But because it was the younger guys pulling the prank, there's no way that I would call it hazing.

 

During the week, I kept hearing rumors that the older guys were plotting their revenge. Finally, on Friday at dinner, three of the older guys asked to sit with me at dinner and asked how far I would allow them to take their revenge. Their plan was to take the cots of the couple or young "ring leaders" and move them into the latrine while they were sleeping. I told them I thought that was going overboard, and didn't think it could be successfully done anyway. They asked if I would have a problem with some other type of retribution. I told them the only hard guideline I had is that NO ONE be injured.

 

The next morning, four of the new boys woke up to bright sunshine on their face. During the night, somehow, mysteriously, their tents were removed from over top of them and reassembled 10 feet away. Frankly, this was one of the funniest things I've ever seen in Scouting. No one got hurt, the older guys got their pay back, and everyone was even.

 

But the bigger benefit, in my eyes? We had seven new Scouts at that campout. They started the week as members of our Troop in name only. They didn't yet belong. They were the little kids. They weren't "us". When they came home, they were members of our Troop just like the guys who had been there a couple of years. They had the respect of the older guys. The older guys went out of their way to help and asssist the young guys whenever they could. These pranks remain in my mind the number one reason why my youngest son remained in Scouting. They also remain the biggest reason why my 22 year old son and my 17 year old sone are best friends. It was my youngest son Adam who masterminded the shorts up the flag pole, and my older son Matt who lead the tent moving escapade.

 

Now, there is a group of guys that range from 17 to 23 who get together whenever they can. On weekends when there is no campout, you can find anywhere between 4 guys (still in high school), and 13 guys (when the college kids are home) who have sleep overs, rotating between each of their houses. They stay up late, playing video games, and B.S.ing. Now that they drive, we hear them leave about midnight or so, and return 25 minutes later with pop, chips, cookies and frozen pizzas. I wake up about 5:00 to go play golf, and they are usually jut falling asleep. the kitchen is a mess. I have to move over a body or two in sleeping bags to find my shoes, and usually have to grab someone's keys to move a car so I can get out. But by the time I get home at 10:30 or so, they are all gone, and there's no evidence they were even there. The kitchen and the living room are spotless.

 

These guys will be friends for life, I predict, and I firmly believe it was two summer camp pranks that caused it.

 

Sorry for the long post. I get a bit teary eyed even thinking about have great this program has been for my sons. OK, I guess me, too.

 

Mark

[scoutingagain]

Like the "Gray Areas", much of this is more how it's done and recieved versus what specifically is done. But we need to keep in mind "hazing" is in the eye of the receptor. If the individuals on the recieving end regard the incident as hazing, it is, regardless of the intent of the perpetrator.

 

I personally don't think there is much negative associated with any of the activities described in this thread so far. But, with the loss of membership going from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts as high as it is on a Nationwide basis, Boy Scout troops should be doing everything they can make that transition as positive as possible.

 

SA

 

 

[EagleInKY]

I generally don't allow pranks, but occasionally one is too easy to miss. Last year at camp our oldest scout was a pain to get up every morning. He made the troop late to breakfast a couple of times. (Getting him up in the mornings has always been an issue). The problem is he is the oldest scout in the troop and often viewed as a leader, no matter what patch is on his sleeve. The boys (and adults) had had enough last year and he wasn't getting up on Saturday. We all wanted to go home. Finally, the boys (with a little assistance), dropped the tent on him.

 

I was shocked at his reaction. I thought he'd be mad, or act like the goof-ball that he usually does. Instead, he nearly broke down crying. I really felt bad and realized that he took the teasing way more seriously than anyone expected him to. In following up with him, I told him that 1) they only tease him because he's liked, and 2) the troop was really frustrated with him because he was constantly making them late. This was their best way of making him aware of it.

 

The intersting thing, is that this year he was a changed (young) man. He was one of the first ones up. He participated in the venturing program at camp. He really did a great job. So, perhaps last year's "prank" gave him a little kick in the pants. Who knows...

 

 

This year at camp a Scoutmaster was pulling a prank on their boys. The SM had wired up an AC outlet to a tree. He had some battery operated appliances (TV, razor, etc.) that he used while plugged in. He then would take the batteries out whenever he left the campsite. All of the camp staff and other SMs were in on it with them. When they were asked why the power didn't work, the response was "go check the breaker down by campsite 7". We'd stop by and say "hey, you're the guys that got the power this year, how much did you pay for that?".... Or, "I hear their putting in cable next year...".

[grampye]

I'm really sort of trying to feel my way to a position on this face painting here and I thank you all for your help.

 

Obviously, hazing is out, whatever that is, but are all pranks played by older boys on the younger ones hazing?

 

Apparently the OA has reached some conclusions here as face painting of one person by another is specifically forbidden as a part of any of their ceremonies.

 

As far as my own experience goes, I can only remember the look on one young man's face when he discovered what had been done to him, and imho, anything that has the potential of causing that kind of hurt should not happen in a Scout troop.

 

However, I can also see the possible benefits - the feeling of acceptance that can be provided by being included in the pranks.

 

How to resolve this? Any ideas?

 

 

[evmori]

One year, the adults in my Troop developed a propane powered light. We told everyone it ran off the relief valve of the tank & the conversion kit could be purchased for $20. We had other adults in other Troops marveling at our feat! A couple did figure out how we did it!

 

The "Gray Areas" will always be there. And they can be different for everyone.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Jeffrey H]

"I was surprised that they recommended any kind of activity that involved singling out the new scouts and having them do something different than the others. To me this is still hazing, which I thought was strictly against BSA rules, yet here it was being advocated in Boys Life. Did anyone else see this column and am I out of line in my thinking?"

 

I read the column and I did not see any promotion of hazing by the columnists.  There will always be initiations for new scouts at the troop-levels.  They can be fun with good memories.  The line is crossed into hazing as anything that causes physical harm to the boy, humiliates the modesty of the boy in front of others, or violates Youth Protection guidelines is not acceptable.

 

When I was tapped-out (called-out) at an OA ceremony in 1976, the three hard slaps I received on my bare shoulders would be considered hazing by todays politically correct standards.  However, those of us who remember these type of OA ceremonies know better.  Minor  bruises appeared on my shoulders but this was considered a badge of honor for those of us selected to be in the OA.  No one got hurt and no one complained.  Good memories.

 

 

[FScouter]

A "gray area" is something you know in your heart is wrong (black) but you want to do it anyway so you call it gray instead of black, and hope you have a white conscience.

[OldGreyEagle]

"but are all pranks played by older boys on the younger ones hazing?"

 

 

Interesting question and I guess the answer is dependent on the term "prank", I wonder if its just another term for hazing.

 

If you are looking for the newer scouts to feel included, why not have the older scouts asy things like "welcome to the troop" and during summer camp help the new guys out with directions and strategies on which merit badges to take plus the one thing that meams quite a bit, time. Time to talk to the younger scout and get to know him, let him know he is part of the team. I think those things are more conducive to a strong bond than humiliation and embarassment

[Aquila calva]

Painting the faces of scouts with a marking pen while they are asleep is hazing.

 

This is done to cause embarrassment and humiliation. It is hazing.

 

There is also a changed technology part to this that cant be ignored. Most marking pens available now are the permanent variety. They are made so the marks are NOT easily removed. A scout really has to work hard to get it off his face. It isnt the old oil-based face paint that used to be available and that was easily removed by a few wipes with a wet cloth.

 

In the old days an OA candidate may have had his shirt opened (or removed) and a red arrow painted on his chest, using oil paint. It could easily be removed. But this apparently caused enough embarrassment and enough humiliation to enough scouts that it is no longer done. Same with the three hard blows to the shoulder. If a scout today purposefully caused bruising on another childs body, it would be big trouble.

 

Times change, folks, as does technology, and as does our understanding of human relationships.

 

We hope for the better.

 

By the way.

 

Happy Feast of St. Benedict!

 

From the Rule of Benedict

 

Chapter 30: How Boys Are to Be Corrected

 

Every age and degree of understanding

should have its proper measure of discipline.

With regard to boys and adolescents, therefore,

or those who cannot understand the seriousness

of the penalty of excommunication,

whenever such as these are delinquent

let them be subjected to severe fasts

or brought to terms by harsh beatings,

that they may be cured.

 

It is a good thing that not everything written 1500 years ago is still followed to the word!

 

"Cured" indeed...the abuse (hazing) just continues without interruption.

 

We can help stop it!

 

Have fun Scouting!

 

[evmori]

To the political correct crowd, using the term PADBALLS could be considered hazing. So could latrine duty of pot scrubbing duty or campsite clean up duty! It's getting so if one person gets embarrassed by anything it is considered hazing. PC run amok is dangerous!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

I thought I saw a snipe!

[Hunt]

It seems to me that one problem with defining hazing is in determining what group exactly we are trying to protect. Are we trying to eliminate actions that will embarass or hurt the typical scout, or those that will embarass or hurt the most vulnerable and sensitive scouts? Or are we trying to eliminate actions that could conceivable embarass or hurt anybody? Personally, I lean toward protecting the most vulnerable--isn't that what it means to be kind?

With that being said, I would propose that not all forms of "initiation" directed at new guys are hazing, because I can think of some that aren't harmful and humiliating. Imagine, for example, that it is the tradition for all the new scouts to throw the SPL into the lake on the first day of summer camp. I don't think that would be hazing (at least, not of the new scouts).

[Aquila calva]

Scouts go to summer camp anticipating fun, sun, learning, advancement and general good times. This probably doesnt include the fear that when they go to sleep at night they will wake up in the morning with a black mustache painted on their faces with a Sharpie.

 

For those troop leaders who still think this is fun, at least have everyone put away their permanent markers. Only oil-based face paint, guaranteed by the manufacturer to be non-toxic and easily removed, is allowed. New committee position: Face Paint Coordinator.

 

Have a good nights sleep. Youre patrol has latrine duty in the morning.

 

Have fun Scouting.

 

[dan]

Aquila calva and Hunt

 

You both have latrine duty of pot scrubbing duty!

 

Great post from both of you! Thank You.

[FScouter]

OGE, it seemed like a good idea. I wonder if anyone these days has guts enough to try it. It takes a real Scout to be kind, helpful, courteous; a friend. No guts required to run shorts up a flagpole.

[evmori]

Synonyms for the word prank

 

joke, antic, caper, caprice, dido, escapade, fancy, fooling, frivolity, frolic, gag, gambol, gotcha, gotchie, high jinks, horseplay, hot one, hotfoot, lark, levity, lightness, monkeyshines, play, put-on, rib, rollick, roughhouse, roughhousing, rowdiness, shenanigans, shine, skylarking, spoof, sport, tomfoolery, trick, whim

 

Synonyms for the word hazing

 

hazing, initiation, martyrdom, ordeal, rite of passage, rude introduction, test of courage, trial by fire

 

No cross over in synonyms. Interesting.

 

A prank might be hazing and hazing might be a prank but a prank isn't always hazing and hazing isn't always a prank. They don't mean the same thing.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10