Losing Older Scouts to Venturing

[pargolf44067]

I originally posted this on another thread, but spun it off to this new one:

 

I understand the idea behind the Venturing program, to keep older youth in the program longer and to open it up to girls, and I think it is a good program. The issue that I am having with it is that we seem to be losing some of our older kids to the Crew that is associated with our Troop. I am a relatively new SM in the Troop and we had some of the same problems as mentioned before (same camps, same activities). We are getting the program back to being boy led and that is helping to come up with different camps now. I guess the issue that I have is that it is frustrating to have some of our 15-16 year old boys, get Life or Eagle and then "cross over" into the Crew. Any ideas on how to keep the boys in the Troop to continue to provide leadership to the younger boys?

 

[frank10]

"(same camps, same activities)"

 

You already know the answer...

[Eagledad]

Have you sat down and explained your fears and frustrations and then asked them for ideas?

 

The older scouts should be the Troop leaders, but for that to happen, the adults need "give" them that power. I find many troops say they are boy run, but the adults don't really give them any room to lead or more important fail. The adults really aren't thinking boy run. There is no reason why a 16 year old can't run a troop as good as the adults, but it does take time and growth development for a program to mature to that point. The adults have to lead in letting even the young scouts take responsibility for the performance of the troop.

 

So I suggest, sitting down with your older scouts and handing your vision to them and asking for their help. Make them part of your team of leading the troop program toward your vision instead of thinking of them as the boys that need to be led by you to the vision.

 

Saying all that, my experience are scouts 14 and older don't do program changes well. So if they aren't use to taking the lead, you won't likely see them make a huge shift that direction. Still, the effort has to be made if for no other reason than you need to practice working with boys in leadership development and giving the boy permission to be the troop leaders, and you need the younger scouts to witness the program that you are trying to develop.

 

It can be done, I seen many times but it takes a few years of hard work, persistance, and patience. Still, these are all character traits that God loves to watch in all of us. Your scouts are lucky to have you as a leader, mentor and role model.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

[Eamonn]

Maybe I'm being a little shall we say "Defensive"? But the phrase "Losing Older Scouts to Venturing" just doesn't sit well, with me.

Some thoughts I have:

I watched OJ (My son) lose interest in the Troop he was in. It is by no means an example of how a by the book (Whatever that might mean??) Troop should be run, but he was active and happy until he reached about 15. He served his time as SPL and then there wasn't much going on that really interested him, so over time he became more of a visitor than active participant. Sure he attended some of the camp outs, but they were held at the same old places and the program seemed to be all about helping the "Little Scouts". Even their hero worship for him got old after a while!!

I think if it hadn't been for his involvement with the OA and then Sea Scouts he would be gone.

Talking with Scouts who are joining the Ship the big thing I keep hearing is that they don't want to work with the little Scouts.

I know we would like things to be like the Rockwell painting with older Scouts spending countless hours helping younger Scouts, but that's just not what is happening.

Part of the problem I seen with OJ was a catch 22 problem, he wasn't showing up enough to be counted on and when he did turn up there was nothing for him to do because they didn't know he was coming, so he ended up doing nothing.

A lot of the requirements in Venturing require that the Venturers teach /share what they have learned to others. So while it might seem they are "Lost" they are in fact doing something more worth while than just visiting.

I really think it has to be better that a Lad moves into Venturing than just quits and becomes an Ex-Scout, then we really have lost him.

We promise Scouts a lot of things in the Boy Scout Handbook.

It never hurts to go back and re-read what we promise. Then ask if you are really providing this to ALL the Scouts in the Troop?

15 and 16 year old Lad's really long for fun, adventure and challenges. If all you are offering (And I'm sure your not!!) is the opportunity to act as nurse maid to the little fellows then is it any wonder they want to move?

At times the older Scouts feel out numbered by the younger Scouts.

In our District it seems that we lose a lot of Scouts before they reach 15 or 16.

Looking at the Den that crossed over with OJ.

Of the nine Webelos Scouts in that Den he is the only one still in Scouting.

In fact most of them were gone soon after they were 14.

Could it be that maybe you are a little to close to the Crew?

We as a Ship are not connected to any other unit. Some of our Sea Scouts are still active in Troops. However when we plan things we do so for the Ship. If there is a clash with a Troop activity it's up to the Lad to choose which or what activity he wants to participate in.

I in fact have gone out of my way to try and make sure that we don't participate in Boy Scout activities like Camporees and competitions. This isn't going over very well with some members of the District, but my thinking is that we don't invite Boy Scouts to participate in Pine Wood Derbies, we need to have clear lines of what is a Boy Scout activity and what is a Venturing or Sea Scout activity. Sure we will send our Scouts in to help go over skills that they can pass on, but when they are done they come home to the Ship.

I think maybe meeting with the guys from the Crew and working out a plan of what you can do for each other might help.

I really don't think we lose kids to the next program, after all we all are working toward the same end.

Eamonn.

[CNYScouter]

This is one of the down falls of having a Crew assoicated with a Troop.

 

I have to agree 100% with EagleDad on this one and can't really add more.

[pargolf44067]

Thanks for the thoughts on this issue. I guess the term "losing" is not appropriate. I do agree that if we keep the boys in some form of Scouting it is better than totally losing them. Our Crew is very closely associated with the Troop. In fact, we have several leaders in the Troop who are also leaders in the Crew. I do think that is part of the issue.

 

One thing that the boys have told me when I was asking what they liked and didn't like about the Troop is that they wanted more "high adventure" stuff, not just camping at the campsite for a weekend. When we have our annual planning meeting next month, I will bring up a couple ideas for getting the older boys more interested, including having 2-3 campouts a year for older boys to do backpacking, rafting, or some other "high adventure" and putting one of my ASMs in charge of working with the boys to help them organize such campouts.

[scoutingagain]

I find myself nodding my head in agreement as I read Eamonn's post. My son in in a similar situation. He just turned 16, finishing up a reasonably successful term as SPL and is headed to summer camp staff this summer. After a year as SPL, attending Troop meetings, outings(many where he was the only scout older than 14), and patrol leader council meetings, he's on the verge of scouting burnout. As Eamonn noted the "hero" worship factor only goes so far. If it wasn't for the camp staff position, I'm not sure what he'd do with scouting. I know he would like to earn Eagle and he is on track, but he has begun to see scouting as more of a chore and not something he does for fun, with the exception of camp staff. We do not have a Venture crew near us, but he has expressed interest in either starting one in town or looking at some out of town. (It hasn't helped that one of his new interests includes a girl friend, but heck the kid's 16 and he's growing up.) He also has an active social life outside of scouting and other high school extra-curicullar activities.

 

Frankly, I don't see how a 15 - 18 year old, would have time to actively participate in both Boy Scouts and a Venturing crew, and still maintain other activities that might include a sport, drama club, band and a social life outside of scouting.

 

"Losing" scout to a Venture Crew may be inaccurate. It may be we're keeping boys in scouting through Venturing that we otherwise would have lost, and that's a good thing.

 

Let's face it. Having an age range that run's from 10.5 to 18 years old in the same program is challenging. Most 16-18 year old boys are not likely to want hang around 11 - 13 year old boys outside of scouting.

 

It may be that instead of looking to keep 16 - 18 year olds to be leaders in a program that is of greater interest to 11- 14 year olds, we let them move on to Venturing, if that's what they want, and begin coaching 14 - 15 year olds to act as SPLs and troop leaders.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

Good luck,

 

SA

 

[Eagledad]

>>Let's face it. Having an age range that run's from 10.5 to 18 years old in the same program is challenging. Most 16-18 year old boys are not likely to want hang around 11 - 13 year old boys outside of scouting.

[John-in-KC]

You have to provide the older youth with program that floats their boat, even as the younger ones are learning the basics.

 

My son made Life Scout in his Troop in January. He asked the Scoutmaster for Life-Eagle materials, so he could map out his path. Kept asking Scoutmaster for same. Scoutmaster said he wasn't Life - Eagle coordinator, but when son asked for a name, none was given.

 

Six months later, son completed eighth grade and went up to the Crew.

 

PROGRAM matters

MENTORSHIP matters

OPPORTUNITIES for growth matter

 

The older youth is approaching adulthood. If he does not find what he seeks, he will seek elsewhere!

[Eamonn]

Hey Eagledad,

Much as I enjoy our little chats, I do hope that others will join in and this just doesn't become a Barry and Eamonn chat.

We could discuss the age groups that we now have. But being as we have them and I don't see them changing anytime soon. That would be a waste of time.

I think we would both agree that more than anything Troops are built on relationships.

I tend to think of each and every Lad who came through the Troop I served as being one of my kids.

One thing I found very hard when I was a young new leader (SM) was allowing new Scouts in.

I somehow, more by luck than judgment found that I had a great bunch of Scouts, who were very dedicated to participating in just about everything we as a Troop were doing. They enjoyed doing the same sort of stuff that I enjoyed and we seemed to be good at it!!

Sadly like Little Jackie Paper in Puff the Magic dragon these Lads grew up and grew old!!

It's all to easy to say that there ought to be a balance. But we here in the USA don't have much control about how many little fellows will cross over into the Troop.

Most SM's I know, seem to take receiving an entire gaggle of little Lads as a pat on the back.

As you know I'm not a great fan of the NSP. I happen to think that mixed age patrols work better and to my mind are more in line with what Scouting should be.

If my memory serves me well I seem to remember that you are not a great fan of Venturing Patrols.(Which can't work if you have mixed age Patrols)

I agree that in mixed age Patrols the older Scouts for different reasons can and do care about the younger Scouts or maybe they just care about the Patrol?

Still there is a need to ensure that the older guys are getting their fair share of adventure, fun and challenges. This might be easy in a unit with enough adult help, but it's really hard in units where there isn't a lot of adults or the adults don't have the skills. Sure we can pack the little Lad's off to the local Council Summer camp and take the older guys to a High Adventure Base. But who takes them when there isn't the adult help?

I was up at our camp tonight. Talking to the Camp Commissioner, he said that he can't remember names or Troop numbers but he remembers what site each Troop uses. They are there at the same week, the same site and the same camp year after year after year.

It's hard to knock a volunteer who is devoting a weeks vacation to take other peoples kids away for a week. But after 3 or 4 years the Scouts feel that they have "Done That, Been There.."

I have to admit that I changed what I was doing and started seeing the new recruits as the most important members of the Troop. In part because I felt I had the older guys and felt they weren't going any where!!

I went out of my way to ensure that all the members of the PLC (Mainly the older Scouts) were made to feel special.

The Scouts used to tease me about saying "Have you asked your Patrol Leader?" Repeatedly.

I really think that you are looking very long term. Sadly I'm not sure if a Troop with only a couple of older Scouts, will hold on to these older Scouts.

Maybe the answer is making long term goals with the younger Scouts? The 12 or 13 year old Scouts. We found that our summer expeditions really did help to hold the Scouts in the Troop, every second year we went some place that the Scouts seen as different or exciting.

While Venturing might not be right for every Lad, we do have to remember that Boy Scouting might not be right and some Scouts will get more out of Venturing and of course everyone would get more out of Sea Scouting (He says with a grin!!

Eamonn.

[pargolf44067]

Eamonn,

 

Those are some interesting insights regarding summer camp and mixed age patrols. The troop that I am in is kind of in flux regarding patrols. In the past, the troop "has always had" age level patrols (eg, all first years in one patrol, all second years in another patrol, etc.). Based on necessity this spring I changed one of the patrols to a mixed age (we only had three second year scouts (the rest dropped out before I became SM), three fourth year scouts and four scouts beyond that that weren't SPL or ASPL). We still have the third year scouts in one patrol (there are still nine of them) and the scouts that crossed over in February in another patrol.

 

Since, we made those patrols, the SPL has said that he thinks we should totally mix the patrols up so they are all mixed age patrols, which I think is a good idea as well. I was thinking about making a venture patrol, but I really don't know if that will work. The "High Adventure" I was talking about was more like older scout backpacking trips or longer canoe trips that the younger boys couldn't do, not necessarily BSA High Adventure. Although we have two crews going to our Tinnerman Canoe Base this summer in Canada and a crew going to Philmont next summer and we are looking at Sea Base in '08, I think a more regular dose of "high adventure" without the younger scouts might help. However, I don't want the older boys to totally ignore the younger scouts.

 

The point about the older scouts caring more about the younger ones in their patrol is also a good one that leads me more towards the mixed age patrols as well.

 

As far as summer camp goes, we are one of those troops that camps the same week, the same camp and the same campsite every year--and we are having a hard time getting some older scouts to go now. My son and two other boys in his patrol, all of whom just finished 7th grade, and only one of which is Star are the oldest boys going to summer camp.

 

The issue we may have with summer camp is that our camp is only 15 minutes away and very convenient for family night and also for getting volunteers to come. If the boys wanted to change the summer camp and/or date, some of the adults might have issues with that, although I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing.

 

Sorry for the rambling post, I just wanted to give you an idea of where our troop is on some of these issues and what I am trying to do to help the boys learn how to lead.

 

Bill

[scoutingagain]

"Yes, challenging but I have to ask, why would a parent want to hang around a troop of 11- 13 year olds either? What is the difference? "

 

Eagledad, there's a hugh difference and your moniker says it all. The vast majority of adults involved with scouting, do so because they are a parent, or were a parent of a scout. The connection between a parent and son, and the sense of obligation to youth, is far different than 16 - 18 year old young men, who do not have a father/son or even sibling connection to the younger members of a troop. These young men are not necessarily slackers, they just have diffent interests and maturity levels.

 

What % of 16 - 18 year old boys, given a choice, would choose to hang around 11 - 13 year old boys, doing activities age appropriate for 11 - 13 year olds, activities the older boys have probably done several times before, versus hanging out with their peers, both girls and boys, doing activities appropriate for their older age group, acitivities they may not have done before or find more challenging?

 

Don't get me wrong. I have great admiration for those older scouts that do stay connected with their troops and mentor younger scouts. But how many do it because it's fun, versus a sense of obligation? In my son's case, he finds the commardarie of the other counselors at camp fun. Unfortuately, that part is missing in our troop.

 

I just can understand how a 16 - 18 year old may have different interests than 11 - 13 year old boys and choose to be active in a crew instead of a troop and given that reality, one alternative may be to groom youth leadership at a lower age. Is there any reason a troop cannot have an effective PLC with an age group of 14 - 15 year olds?

 

SA

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

"Is there any reason a troop cannot have an effective PLC with an age group of 14 - 15 year olds?"

 

In general, maturity and experience. Plus, if you have the 16 and 17 year old scouts leaving the troop to join the crew, trust me, the 14 and 15 year olds will be following right on the heels of the cool older guys. That leaves you with a troop of 11 - 13 year olds with no older boys to serve as examples of leadership. Are there mature 11 - 13 year olds. Sure there are, my son is a good example of a mature 13 year old. Is he ready to be the SPL of a troop of 63 scouts. No. He was in fact the SPL of our old defunct troop of ten boys when he was 12. The troop was made up of 11 and 12 year olds. He did as good of a job as possible for a 12 year old with a lot of support from "adults". There is a reason the troop is defunct.....no older boy leadership. The boys kept wanting to fall back into a Webelos mode despite our training efforts.

 

Our troop has just started up a crew because we had a good deal of interest from older scouts and scout families with daughters asking for it. We have cussed and discussed all of the pros and cons for the troop. Time will tell how things will go. Obviously, one of the great concerns is losing older boys. The idea is that anyone outside the troop can join with no obligation to the troop. However, a boy joining from the troop must maintain his membership and activity in the troop with the crew as a side venture.....no pun intended. Then the idea was floated that if a boy decides to "quit" the troop in order to join the crew and sidestep the above rule, there will be an 18 month waiting period for joining the crew. My question all along has been how do you enforce something like this? The crew is currently made up of 4 boys and 4 girls and they are developing their own calendar....but will on occasion be camping with the troop. They will also borrow troop gear until they can raise funds to buy their own gear. Troop high adventure trips and summer camps that offer coed opportunities will be open to the crew.

 

I really prefer the idea of crews being chartered independently of a troop because of all of the issues (plus many more) that I've listed. Our SM is also the Crew Advisor, so he is wearing two hats. On one hand, he wants to grow a successful crew, but does not want to destroy a highly successful boy led troop that has existed for 45 years. We have our work cut out for us.

[emb021]

"scoutingagain" said a lot of things I was going to say. I'll just add a few.

 

I've seen this topic come up occasionally in on-line formats. Personally (as a former Boy Scout leader and current Venturing leader), I get pretty annoyed with it. The general 'attitude' I see put forth by the scoutleaders is that somehow the only 'purpose' these older boys (14/15+) serve in their troops is to be 'leaders' for the younger kids. Its like they are supposed to be slaves to the scoutmaster and be there only for these younger kids. Nothing is said about what's in it for these older kids. Its all about the 'needs' of the troop and these younder kids over any needs of the older kids. No wonder you loose them to Venturing (or worse, scouting).

 

Venturing allows these older kids to do stuff that appeals to THEM. And being leaders/mentors/nursemaids to a bunch of younger kids is not something that appeals to most older kids (read what "scoutingagain" said). Yes, the Venturing program does encourage these youth to give back to the packs and troops, but this is on THEIR terms, not the scoutmasters. And they still get to do the stuff they want with their peers.

 

Its views like this that I really wish the BSA did what most scouting associations have done and just end the Boy Scout Program at age 14 or so.

 

[Eagledad]

>>Eagledad, there's a hugh difference and your moniker says it all. The vast majority of adults involved with scouting, do so because they are a parent, or were a parent of a scout.