Is this "usual" Troop policy?

[scoutingagain]

OK maybe I'm dense and don't follow all of this.

 

Frzncph, Let me get this straight.

 

Camp has been paid for, for all the boys.

 

Some of the boys have formed a new Troop.

 

The original Troop wants the money back?

 

Does the camp recognize that the boys have paid for camp? If so, it seems like it's up to the camp to decide if they are going to give the money back or not. Once paid for though, I would find it hard to believe a camp would return money and say a boy can't go to camp.

 

Have you asked the camp Director if he/she considers the scouts that formed a new troop to have paid for camp or not? If they show up, will he/she turn them away?

 

SA

 

 

[ScoutNut]

I think that scoutingagain has hit it on the nose. The Summer Camp has ALREADY been PURCHASED in the name of these scouts. It is a done deal, the camp slots bought, paid for & given to the Scouts. To now demand that the camp refund the purchase price of something that NO LONGER BELONGS TO THEM is ludicrious & EXTREMELY unscoutlike.

 

If your Scout Camp is anything like ours the ONLY reasons they will consider for ANY % of refund are medical reasons, death in the family, or changes in work

schedules. Even when they DO agree to some % of a refund, they take out a 10% admin fee off the top.

 

To me it looks like the old Troop is going to loose it's money one way or the other. Why take it out on the boys?

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

If their camp registration works anything like ours, the Troop has paid the money and has the receipt for it. For that money, the original troop can send X number of bodies to camp...the camp doesn't care who. We don't have to provide names until we actually check in on Sunday afternoon. The original troop is saying it's their money to use for THEIR scouts. If a scout drops out or transfers, the refund is paid to the troop, who then decides what to do with it. All transactions are between the troop and the council, not the scout and the council. The solution would be for all registrations to be paid directly to the council by the individual scouts, but that's more paperwork for the council to keep track of, so it ain't gonna happen.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[frznpch]

It works just that way Scoutldr, or at least I think it does. We called the camp and asked if we could just pay for the boys who transferred, and were told that the whole thing had been "frozen," because it was on the DE's desk to decide. Then the DE says no, he doesn't know anything about it! We have a donor who would at this point pay for the whole thing, even another camp, but finding slots at a Camp might be difficult at this late date. The sad thing is that all but three boys from the original troop transferred out to the new (it really is a bad situation there), but the old troop seems to be looking for boys to send to camp wherever they can find them, to try to fill up the slots alloted (again, it has gotten vindictive). The boys who worked to go to camp are paying the price for some grownup bad feelings.

[Aquila calva]

Just out of curiosity and without being too specific, what organizations holds the troop charters for the first troop, and the second troop? For example are they churches, civic groups, schools or other?

 

When are the scouts scheduled to go to camp? How much time do you have to get this straightend out?

 

If there are three scouts still in the first troop, how many scouts are in the second troop?

[frznpch]

The first troop is under the auspices of a civic organization, the second under a local corporation. We have about a month until camp. We have eighteen boys, including the former Webelos, all of whom joined the new troop after their crossover ceremony. As you can see, we don't have a lot of time to fix this.

[ScoutNut]

Since you now have a donor willing to cover camp costs for all 18 boys, stop messing around with your old Troop. This is the course they have chosen, let them alone.

 

Start by finding out if there are 18 spots at any of your council camps. The camp might not be able to transfer the original slots, but they can sign up a new Troop if they are still taking registrations. If all of your camps are sold out, then start looking at councils around you. Heck, you might find there is a camp right in your backyard that has low registration numbers because it is so far from its home council area.

 

Start focusing on finding your boys a camp, NOW, & stop focusing on your old Troop.

 

[Lisabob]

Adding to ScoutNut's suggestions (which I think are very pragmatic):

 

Assuming that you quickly find another camp that has 18 openings for your boys (or that the current camp has 18 openings for which you might need to pay - again), before signing up and committing to paying, give your DE a deadline. Tell him this is the situation: you've found a camp where your boys can attend and you've found a way to pay for it if necessary. If he doesn't have a firm answer about whether or not the slots your boys have already paid for through the current troop are "yours" by, say, three days from when you contact him, you will move forward completely on your own. You'll pay (again) for the new slots and you'll consider the matter solved.

 

However...you'll remember in the future that he dragged his feet on getting you a timely answer, too.

 

Don't know what others think? But as you say you don't have a lot of time and I think it sounds like you've played "nice" with the DE long enough. Time for him to make a decision or you'll make your own regardless of what he prefers. The boys can't wait while some adult from council dithers.

 

Lisa'bob

[scoutldr]

"However...you'll remember in the future that he dragged his feet on getting you a timely answer, too."

 

Is that supposed to be some kind of threat? How, exactly will that affect the DE? Sorry, but this is not the DE's problem to solve. This is a unit matter, which is why he's probably ignoring it. And push comes to shove, the original unit is not doing anything illegal or against policy, they're just being nasty. The moneys went into the Unit's account and belong to the CO. They are the ones who decide....not the DE. If they want to keep the money, you're all done. Chalk it up to a lesson in life. Even Scouters don't always play fair. Get the kids to camp and move on.

[Lisabob]

The problem frzpch described is, unfortunately, no longer just a unit problem because now there's more than one unit. I don't see how the DE wouldn't end up involved, much as he might wish otherwise.

 

From previous posts, I was under the impression that the DE had already stepped in to try to help these two units resolve their issues. And in that case, the DE had better hurry up and do whatever he is going to do, so these two units can both move on. He might decide something grossly unfair, but at least it would be done.

 

Perhaps that's not what happened and the DE isn't involved. It's a mixed up case and maybe I read something wrong. But even then I do think the DE has a role to play here, on two fronts. First, DEs often get involved by working with the CO when units have problems, to make sure the CO is aware of their role in this relationship. Odds are at least even that whatever caused the split between these two groups, the CO wasn't aware of half of it. And even if they were, they may have no idea that some of the original leaders are now trying to "un-pay" for camp for boys that were already signed up. The DE should be making the CO aware of this and applying pressure to cut it out. Might not succeed but the DE should be trying.

 

Second, part of the DE's job is to help new units get up and running, and that includes helping a new unit figure out how to get to camp. We're constantly told that attendance at camp is one of the biggest indicators of retention. Well if the DE wants the new troop to start off strong, it's in his interest to make sure these boys get to camp one way or another. And for that to happen, the new unit needs closure on this financial issue.

 

Nope, not all scouters play "fair." Clearly adults in at least one of these two units, and quite possibly both units, fit that description.

 

Lisa'bob

[frznpch]

Scoutnuts idea about going ahead and just paying for camp was the one I tried last week. We were told by the Council that we couldn't do that yet, because the decision was on the DE's desk. When we called him, he said he didn't know a thing about that. But, your idea about trying other councils is a good one. I agree that the important thing here is to get the boys to camp. However, that said, this is the second time in three years that something similar has happened within this same troop, and I agree with Lisabob that the DE should be making sure that the CO knows their responsibilities. In this case, they were pretty unaware of what they were supposed to be doing, which has been part of the problem. The COR didn't attend meetings, and wasn't encouraged to do so until the new people (the ones who have now split off) came along and pushed for CO representation at meetings, etc. When confronted by the problems, the CO board basically said "we don't have anything to do with it." It had to be explained to them and documented, and now the whole board has to sort of "mull it over." So I will try this week to find another camp for the boys, and hope that there is one available outside of our council, because our council won't take our money until the DE makes a decision he claims to be unaware he is to make. I'm sorry if I sound frustrated, but it seems like a game of "hot potato" that is never going to end.

[Vicki]

frznpch, how did this get resolved? I believe you've been to, or are close to going to, camp?

[NeilLup]

Hello frznpch,

 

I regret the mess that you are going through. I have seen a few of those in the 50+ years that I have been in this "jolly game."

 

We have a saying in Scout training "Send a monkey to training and you'll get back a trained monkey." There's a corollary to that "Put a Scout uniform on a jerk, and you'll get a jerk in a Scout uniform." Just because adults (or youth) are involved in Scouting doesn't change their basic personalities. I would like to think that we do a lot better than average but we are far from perfect.

 

You have said that you are disappointed with the Scout hierarchy. Referring things to the chartered organization IS the Scout hierarchy. The Chartered Organization owns the unit, not the BSA. The DE's job is to to keep the old unit happy, keep you happy, keep the chartered organization happy, etc.

 

The idea of a mediator is excellent. A good Commissioner should be able to do that job. Is your Unit Commissioner, if you have a good one, or District Commissioner aware of this problem. DEs can be pretty junior and inexperienced. But is sounds as if the formation of the new troop occured rather acrimoniously and there is something of a "over my dead body" attitude about the boys going to camp. If the leaders of the old unit consider formation of the new unit to be a personal attack or personal insult or repudiation of them as people, it can be very tough.

 

As a final thought, if you need a camp with space, my council's camp has space. We'd be happy to have you.

[frznpch]

Hi Vicki and NeilLup. First of all, thanks for your kind offer of camp space. That is the attitude I expect from a good Scout! We have however, found a camp. To answer your questions, we gave up on the old Charter Organization doing anything effective, and went out on our own to find a camp. We have this one incredible parent/sponser, who paid the bill, although I still hold out some slight hope that the old CO will see it's way clear to repaying at least some of it. And really, I know it is my side of things and all, but the bad behavior here is on the part of adults in the original troop. When told by their CO that they would have to allow our boys to go to camp, they wrote a letter stating that the boys could come, but none of our leaders. Well, after they have written threatening letters, approached boys to tell them that they wouldn't be going to camp if they were in the new troop, accused the new troop of theft (demonstrably not true, and proven false), told parents the new troop was not "legal," etc., none of the parents who had left the old troop would consent to send the boys to camp without our own leadership. The upshot is that they have spent around $8000.00 to send three boys and six or seven adults to two camps this summer. All we wanted was for our boys to go to camp, and that is happening, so we are happy. However, parents have questioned some of our leaders about the "Boy Scouts," behaving this way. Most parents don't understand that this is about a few bad apples, not the whole bunch, and so we are doing some rehab on the BSA's reputation as a whole. Sadly, this kind of behavior can give Scouting a "black eye," and the notion that the CO is in control of the sitution seems ridiculous, since most people don't even know who that is. Our boys are wearing Boy Scout uniforms, not Elks Club insignia, company logos, or church emblems. So, I would think that the BSA would be more concerned about what happens, but that is just my two cents. Also, I love your saying about the monkey (or jerk) in a Scout uniform. Too true!

[Lisabob]

Well I'm glad to hear that the boys ended up going to camp in the end, and given all the bad blood it is probably better off for everyone involved that you are going to camp separately from the other group. I hope the new troop as a whole will be able to put all of this unpleasantness behind and look forward to building a great scout program for the boys.

 

Lisa'bob