Is this "usual" Troop policy?

[frznpch]

Hi, all. Please bear with me, as I am new to this whole process, but I have a question that I really need answered. Our Troop has recently had some real problems, and as a result, one group has split off into a new Troop. While with the original Troop, the families worked to raise funds for this year's summer camp, which has been pre-paid. Now the original Troop says that the boys who have left can't go to camp on the money they earned, and that this is "BSA policy." Does anyone know if this is correct? The original Troop does include this in their by-laws, but no one really sees those much. Thanks.

[NJCubScouter]

First of all, welcome to the forums!

 

As to your question, my experience in this forum suggests that you will receive a variety of responses giving different opinions as to who owns what, who has the right to what, what usual troop policies are, what troop policies should be, maybe some people arguing that there shouldn't be troop policies or by-laws, all you need is the Scout Oath and Law etc etc etc.

 

My advice for you (or more specifically, for the parents who believe that money is being held by the old troop that should be used on behalf of their sons) is to run, don't walk to the phone and call your District Executive, explain the problem and ask for assistance. My primary concern would not be what the applicable BSA policy is, if there is one. If your DE tells you he/she can't help you because of a BSA policy, ask to see the policy in writing. My hope would be that unless the rule is crystal clear against you, a DE's primary concern would be making sure there is a fair distribution of the funds so he/she does not have a bunch of disgruntled parents on his/her hands, and possibly a failed new troop over a financial dispute.

[Beavah]

When you raise money for an organization, the money belongs to the organization. Simple as that, eh. You can't raise money by fundraisers that goes into your own pocket or buys things for you or your family. That's fraud and tax evasion. It's not a BSA policy, it's the law.

 

Now, if in the old troop there was some understanding that the troop was going to allocate a portion of fundraising revenues for summer camp, then I think an honorable thing for the old troop to do is to try to get a refund from the camp on camp fees for the guys who left, and transfer whatever refund they were able to get over to the new troop.

 

That's not a requirement for them, any more than they have to give you the tents you helped raise money for. But in this case, I think it would be the Trustworthy, Courteous, and Kind thing to do.

 

Be sure to be equally courteous and kind when you ask, eh!

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

Hi Frznpch,

 

As NJCubScouter said, you're likely to get a lot of different opinions on this - and here's one of them.

 

Technically the fundraising was a Troop effort and no matter whether the Troop treats their funds as one large account, or whether the Troop creates "individual Scout accounts" for each Scout, the money raised benefits thatTtroop. If it was one individual Scout that left the unit, I doubt there is a single person who would question the Troop keeping any funds that the lad helped raise - if he left Scouting altogether, there is no way a Troop would be cutting a check to that boy, and under prevailing laws governing non-profits, it would be illegal to do so anyway. They earned that money for the Troop - not for themselves.

 

However, if the understanding in the original Troop was that money raised in the Troop's fundraisers would go into "individual Scout accounts" to be available to the Scout to use for Scouting related expenses (summer camp, weekend camps, Scout Handbooks, uniform parts, etc.), and a group of Scouts left to form a new Troop, you could respectfully ask that the original Troop honor that commitment to the group of Scouts that left. BUT - and its a big one - the original Troop really has no obligation to do so. Given that there appears to be some rancor involved in the split, it's unlikely that the original Troop would agree to this. And its highly unlikely that the District Executive will be able to change their minds, nor should s/he.

 

As for policy, my understanding of BSA Policy is that individual unit funds ultimately belong to the Chartered Organization. If the unit folds, the unit's funds and equipment inure to the benefit of the CO.

 

CalicoPenn

 

ps: Welcome to the Forum

 

 

[John-in-KC]

I will agree with both Beavah and CP.

 

BTW, CP, the funds and equipment inure to the chartered partner for the further support of Scouting. If the chartered partner decides to withdraw its support from Scouting, they are expected to surrender funds and equipment to the Council for redistribition to needy units.

 

NOW, that said...

 

Most Councils I know have already collected the funds for Scout camp from the units. It would be an honorable thing for the unit to coordinate with the council for funds spent anticipating the departing boys attending camp to have those funds transferred. That way, the Scouts get to go to camp.

 

If I was either CC or SM of the new unit, I would ask for assistance from my UC, COR, and DE in this matter. The object of our adult work is to serve the boys.

 

Will everything actually happen? Dunno. Now we get people involved, and people are not abstractions; they are individuals, with likes, dislikes, ideals, and prejuidices all their own.

 

Let us know how this works out.

[Eamonn]

What a sad situation.

While I would normally accept any advise that the gentleman from NJ offers.

I kinda think he is a little off on this one.

The problem is that there isn't a BSA policy.

I'm guessing (I don't know!!) that this is by design.

The policy would be the policy of the Chartering Organization.

Following what the Beavah said.

The money or funds were raised in the name of the Chartering Organization and technically belong to that organization, as do any dues paid.

Being as this money is not owned or managed by the BSA there is no policy.

Of course if a Scout had made payments toward camp from money not from unit sponsored fund raising he should be repaid.

OK - So that's how it is.

But.

Back when I was a Cubmaster, when the time came for a little fellow to cross over, he took whatever money he had in his account with him. The Church really had no idea what money was where or what it was being spent on, even though the COR was at most Pack Management Committee meetings. So maybe I was giving away money that wasn't mine to give??

Right now we have just had a Lad join the Ship.

He is 15 and has been (Mostly thanks to his Dad) been the top Popcorn seller in the Council since he was a Tiger Cub. He has over $4,000 in his account!!

The Troop can't wait to get rid of the money.

I don't think our Ship Treasurer really wants it.

I would talk to everyone concerned and remind them that we are in this for the kids.

Eamonn.

 

[Vicki]

OK, maybe I'm seeing this too simplistically, but it seems to me that if the camping fees have been pre-paid with the original troop (let's say 25 scouts have been paid and 10 left) that a phone call to the council camping office could result in two troops with reservations - one with 15 attending and one with 10. Always assuming there aren't logistical issues such as the camp not having sites available with those configurations.

 

Other than the personalities involved, am I missing something? I don't think the fundraising aspect is relevant to the conversation?

 

My priority would be getting the boys to camp.

 

Vicki (edited to add a thought)(This message has been edited by Vicki)

[frznpch]

Hi again. Thanks to all of you for your replies. I feel just like Vicki does, but there ARE some personalities involved, and control of the money seems to be very important. Maybe it is just my Mom perpective, but I think that the boys going to camp IS the only goal. So, I will let you know how it turns out. At this point, a letter has been sent to the parents of the boys who left, telling them that unless they are active in the original Troop, the camp funds will be withdrawn, so we'll see.

[Cheerful Eagle]

Suppose with 20/20 hindsight, the word to the wise is:

 

Bury the hatchet until AFTER summer camp. Then give your "2 week notice".

[SR540Beaver]

I'm kind of with Vicki on this. Let's say that troop 123 has 20 scouts. 10 scouts leave and start troop 321. While all 20 scouts were part of troop 123, they decided on a going to summer camp at Camp Itchybloomers. Most summer camps require payments and merit badge choices to be made long before summer camp begins. From my experience with starting a new troop a couple of years ago, the council and camp bent over backwards to make space for us at summer camp. Merit badge choices have been made and fees paid. The only difference now is two troops instead of one. I'd contact the council/camp and see if there is any way to fit the new troop in to a different week than the old troop. Camps are pretty darn flexible. If they were not, they'd go out of business.

 

Once you get past this, hopefully everyone can go their own way and leave each other alone.

[Vicki]

>control of the money seems to be very important>

 

But if I read your post correctly, there's no money to control? It was all paid to the camp and now it's just a matter of getting the boys to camp, right? If you're talking about canceling the reservations of the scouts who formed a different troop, if your camps are like ours you'll only get about 2/3 of it back. That's really cutting your nose off to spite your face, IMO.

 

If it wasn't ALL paid to the camp, and there's money left over, in a perfect world, the boys go to camp and the rest is divided pro rata between the troops. But then, it's not a perfect world and adults can get really ugly with each other, unfortunately.

 

To get back to the question you asked, I think you're probably gathering that there is no "usual" troop policy.

 

Vicki

[Aquila calva]

The letter being sent probably amounts to some kind of ultimatum.

 

Time for everyone involved to take a deep breath and swallow hard.

 

Since the first troop is playing hard ball with the cash, then its time for the second troop to say finewe look forward to joining you at summer camp, and we are looking forward to having lots of fun.

 

This will get the scouts and leaders(maybe) to camp, and get some advancement done. The people who cant deal with this solution need to take a long hard look at the scout oath and law.

 

Of course, this is just the second troop calling the first troops bluff and everyone needs to be willing to follow through with it.

 

There will be more to this story. Tell us what happens.

 

[scoutldr]

There is no "BSA policy" on this. It is true that all troop property, including money, belongs to the CO. Perhaps a nicely worded letter to the original unit's COR or IH would explain the situation and get a positive response. If the camp fees have been paid, it may be a simple thing, assuming you are going to the same camp, to have the registrations transferred to the new unit. If the CO agrees to this, it's done deal and the troop committee has nothing to say about it. Your DE or DC should run interference for you.

 

Sometimes adults can ruin everything.

[EagleInKY]

It's pretty much been covered, but I'll go ahead and chime in with my take on it.

 

First, it was stated before and it's worth stating again. Funds raised under the premise of being a charitable donation must belong to the troop. Giving it directly into the pockets of scout families is illegal.

 

Generally, there's two approaches to handling funds. The first is to put all moneys into a general fund. Then, you use that money to purchase equipment, patches, etc. You might also use that money to augment the cost of activities, summer camp, etc. In this way, everyone gets an equal share of the pie. It's totally legal and above board. The only down side is that scouts who don't put any effort into it, gets the same value out of it that scouts who do.

 

The second method is meant to address that shortcoming. It allows portions of the profits to be allocated back to individual scouts. Then these scouts can use those funds toward normal scout activity costs. This has the same effect as the first method (paying for gear, lowering the cost of scouting, etc.), but has the added incentive of rewarding scouts based upon effort.

 

There's a grey line you have to watch with individual accounts. The money truly still belongs the unit. They are simply dividing up the pie in a ratio based upon effort/results. As long as it's treated that way, you are still above board.

 

Now, when a scout leaves a unit, what happens to the money? Simply put, there are two legal options. One is for the unit to keep the money and return it to the general fund. The second is to transfer the money to the unit the scout is moving to. So, if a boy quits scouts all together, he has no claim on the money. Troops that have individual accounts should have a stated policy to keep claims against the money from happening.

 

Our troop uses both approaches. Individual activities, such as popcorn sales, are filtered into individual accounts. Group activities go to the general fund and are used to reduce the cost to everyone in the group.

 

One additional note, we also allow scouts to deposit money into their individual account. For example, if dad doesn't like writing a check for every monthly activity, he can "prepay" into his account and the activity fees are removed as appropriate. In this type of case, the money rightfully belongs to the scout and should be refunded if they leave the unit.

[SaintCad]

I think the manner of the breakup is important to the discussion. If the new troop's attitude was a "screw you we're leaving!" then they left and gave up everything to the old troop. On the other hand, if the split was amiable and the break-up was mutual, then definately the funds and supplies should be shared (maybe not 50/50 though).