Kahuna's Departure and Maybe....

[Eamonn]

Like a great number of other forum members I was and am sad to see Kahuna leave.

I did send a PM with my feelings.

I belong to another forum, but don't post there very often. A very good friend of mine is a moderator in that forum. I do respect him and the other forum, but it seems they are very quick to close threads and tell people off.

Terry,(Our host and site owner) does keep an eye on what is going on. When he asked a few people to give Hops-Scout and OGE a hand with being moderators he in a very nice way set out some general guidelines.

I'm sure he isn't going to get to upset if I quote part of what he said:

"Tread softly... I allow many discussions to continue not because I'm not paying attention, but because most don't really reach a level where I feel they need to be censored. In the Issues and Politics forum particularly, there should be a pretty loose control. I am more concerned about "stupid noise" and "intentional personal attacks" there than I am controversial positions on issues.

I don't follow all the threads.

I was following the "Rulesmongering" Thread.

To be very honest when I read the postings I really didn't see an intentional personal attack.

However looking back I see that maybe I was wrong.

Maybe I ought to have deleted it and sent the forum member a pm explaining what I'd done and why I'd done it.

The fact is that I didn't.

Maybe my reasoning was that a little time before someone had been unhappy with something I'd posted and had let me know about it?

I like to think that for the most part the moderators do a fairly good job and try not to "Get in the way".

Sure we like everyone else have good days and bad days and at times I know I let people get to me.

Sure I know at times I have some ideas and postings that are plain outright daffy.

When I think I have it all mastered I'll change my Username to RightAtAllTimes, but somehow I don't see that happening.

While maybe it's just an excuse and not a reason, I think the forum is a much safer, kinder place than it has been at times.

I do want to apologize to Kahuna as I now see that I didn't do what I'm supposed to do.

We do really have a great group of people who post in this forum. Every now and then we all need to remember where the Backspace tab is or just hit the Reset.

I don't agree with the idea scouting used to be much nicer than it is now.

We all may slip up from time to time, but we are all trying to do our best to live up to the Oath and Law.

Eamonn.

 

[anarchist]

Eamonn,

 

Don't beat yourself up. If Kahuna feels it is not worth the time it is a personal choice...we all step on toes (some of us more than others)and in return get our own toes tread upon...that's life. In the gaseous realms of "Issues and Politics", (an area I generally avoid -unless I am feeling frisky), everyone should not only understand but expect some "pepper on their eggs". As a moderator of a political discussion it is important to ride this beast with a very light hand -and not be a censor. After all, we are all pretending to be adults here (whether we are or not)...there is a saying about 'heat' and 'the kitchen'...

 

Short story; our last CC and SM (RGGs-really good guys)were both "yankees", and both "short fused" and agressive 'debators'. Their abrupt and rather brutal style of ...er...'discussion' on more than one occaision, freaked out many people on the committee and in the troop. Having gone nose to nose with both of them... on numerous topics and sharing many a fine elixirs of rice, grains and hops afterwards (or should it be afterwOrds?) I knew that their "way of debate" was not a form of attack but more like heated family arguements...(from their perspective they were passionately 'fighting' with friends not attacking enemies...

 

Was there a better way? no doubt about it, but I was not gonna be able to do any more than try to smooth the waters and ease the hurt feelings and then go have an elixir or three.

 

And finally, IMHO, scouting was never really "nicer" but "it" was more 'complacent' or perhaps 'inattentive' (even non-judgemental or neglectful and forgiving?) to what units were doing...but scouting has always been a pretty "nice" place to hang your hat for a spell.

go have a pint..on us..er, on Terry.

 

Anarchist

[CA_Scouter]

As I see it, some of the problem with forums and electronic communication in general is the anonymity behind it, i.e.. people get bolder and use stronger words behind their screen names. Its also difficult to judge the tone and/or intent of a poster. As Anarchist points out, sometimes its just the 'style' of a person..

 

I work extensively with email on my job, as we have about 30 locations in the U.S. and Europe so I have to be very clear and careful in my wording to communicate properly. So I have a few steps that I follow:

 

1) Don't write something that you wouldn't say to someone directly in a face to face encounter. ( The possibility that you might get slapped across the face does wonders for politeness ).

2) Reread your post/email at least 2 times before hitting the SEND button. ( Correct your spelling and grammatical errors ).

3) Pretend its not you reading your own email, but the person on the receiving end. ( Is it appropriate? Is it in good taste? ).

 

Most importantly, especially in these forums, if you are responding to a post, try to assume the BEST of people, rather than the worst. I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Scouters, assuming that if something comes across 'rough', that its a slip of the 'tonque/fingers' so to speak and not an outright attack ( there are of course, exceptions ).

 

That's my wisdom which I impart upon thee today! :_0

 

 

 

[LongHaul]

I've read the posts to "rule mongering" several times and don't see a personal attack on Kahuna anywhere. As mine is one of only two that could IMO be construed as a personal attack I hope Kahuna is listening when I say I meant no disrespect. I do respect your opinions and views and that is why your post surprised me, that should not be taken to mean I don't respect your view on what should have been the response to your presence on the water front, I just don't agree with it. I've seen personal attacks in these forums over the years and have seen posters ejected from this forum for those attacks and rightly so. Eamonn if mine was the post you think you should have deleted Please PM me.

LongHaul

 

[SR540Beaver]

E,

 

You guys do an outstanding job. I'm sorry to see Kahuna go, but that is his decision. I have not gone back and reread what he took as a personal attack. What I recall of it was that it was a different perspective. Whatever.....it is Kahuna's right to be offended and chose where he wants to go and be on the internet. I wish him well.

 

I have participated in a variety of forums on the internet for a good number of years. I've seen some extremely rude and obnoxious people who take full advantage of being anonomous. I've seen boards where moderators kick people off right and left simply for ideological reasons that have nothing to do with manners. For instance, the Sean Hannity board has what they call "contempt of affiliate". It is your responsibility to know the rule exists and also know which radio talkers are also aired on WABC in New York City and if you say anything bad about them, you will get banned from the Hannity board. They call that Fair and Balanced. I appreciate that Terry allows the board to be governed by the Oath and Law for the most part. It is rare that we have a Yaworski/Fat Old Guy that comes along with the express purpose of poking people in the eye with a sharp stick and causing general meyhem. It is people like him who need to get the boot after a number of chances.

 

My only gripe are those who joined the forum and seem to only hang out in Issues and Politics. There are a few folks who evidentily are scouters, but never contribute at all to scouting threads. They seem to only want to show up and "mix it up" on an issue that pushes their buttons. They have a right to be here and post like anyone else, they just sometimes let their ideology get the better of them and tend to forget about using the Oath and Law to guide their behavior. It is then that I would hope the moderators would send a friendly little PM telling them to take a breath and consider their tone.

[Kahuna]

There is in the law such a thing as a limited appearance, which means the attorney doesn't wish to become a part of a case or submit himself to the forum but simply to present some point of law or other piece of business.

 

This is such an appearance. I couldn't help checking back into the forum, primarily to reassure myself that my original decision was the correct one. I am still of that opinion. Nothing, of course, is permanent and I may change my mind again sometime in the future.

 

However, since I care a great deal about scouting and have great respect for almost every member of the forum (and non of the exceptions were involved in the discussion in question), I do wish to make this clarification. My departure was not caused by anything I perceived as a personal attack. The only thing that happened in the rulesmongering discussion was that I realized that many of the issues being raised and debated here were bringing down my feelings about scouting overall.

 

On a daily basis in scouting, I do not need to be concerned about drops in membership, uniform police or rulesmongering (one of the great things about Sea Scouting is that nobody knows enough about us to critique us about much of anything). In my research about scouting history I don't have to be aware of what the volunteers are doing in Chicago or whether National will change its policy on gays or God. For the most part, I can just go on happily ignorant of all the deeper issues and the nit picky stuff.

 

So, I feel that for the present I am happier not reading about the negative things, even though they are offset frequently by great stories of some happy scouting experience. I find my reading of the forum topics today has not changed that feeling.

 

In any event, I'm sorry if anyone thought I was stomping off because of something that I saw as a personal attack. And again, good wishes for blessings and bliss to all.

[anarchist]

Kahuna,

 

Peace and gentle tides....

 

But gosh, it is hard when one cranes ones neck to "see" a car wreck and then is upset by what one sees...

but drop in any time...you are welcome....(avoid issues and politics though)

Anarchist

[Eamonn]

It kinda looks as if I seen something that never was there in the first place.

If this has caused any hurt feelings or harm in any way I'm very sorry.

Eamonn.

[anarchist]

E-man,

 

 

Since much of the "reader/poster distress" comes from the "Issues and Politics" threads" (go figure!)

Perhaps, you and OGE could use your good graces to get Terry to change the explanative discription (under ther thread general heading) from-

 

"In answer to many requests, we established a separate forum for these topics. Those not interested can skip this forum instead of spending time reading unwanted messages to identify content. "

 

to something more clear...like-

 

"ABANDON ALL HOPE, YE WHO ENTER HERE"

 

after all...it seems to be closer to the mark...

 

Anarchist

[John-in-KC]

Eamonn,

 

Like you I sent a PM to our fellow Scouter. I've found his input and feedback extremely useful. At the same time, a hard lesson I learned a few years back: Each of us has only so much emotional energy. Using that energy up leads to very bad things.

 

Kahuna, and only Kahuna, is responsibile to manage his emotional energy. If this forum is a net drain to him, he owes it to himself to absent himself from here.

 

That's a lesson we can all take away.

[gwd-scouter]

I have stepped back from the forum a bit recently, but for a different reason. I actually enjoy reading some of the heated exchanges that go on here, at times laughing out loud at the adsurdity of some. At times, my "emotional energy" is depleted by the forum because...

 

When I first found this forum I was elated. As a new SM, I had so many questions and was grateful for the advice from many of you, the words of wisdom from others, and just the simple understanding and "been there - done that" expressions of support.

 

But, it seems after a year and a half into the process of revitalizing our troop, I've hit a wall. The guys seem to have hit that wall too. The wall of resistance. They were coming along pretty well, ups and downs along the way, but we were on our way to turning the troop culture around.

 

BANG. Right into that wall. They really do have the tools and skills to take the initiative to plan things themselves. I am willing to let them do that. But, we just can't seem to make that next step. Perhaps they are afraid. Perhaps I am, too. It's at moments like this that the forum sometimes depresses me.

 

I read posts and am reminded of how woefully unprepared I was to take over as SM. And, how unprepared I am still. Oh sure, I've taken training, attend roundtables, and try to keep learning everything I can from a variety of sources. I've always loved the outdoors and think I am an above average camper. But, nothing has or could prepare me for the feelings of inadequacy and failure I feel from time-to-time.

 

I read so many posts here from folks who have troops that are organized and well-run by the scouts, that have adults that understand the Aims and Methods, that have exciting and fun activities at meetings and each month's campout, have a new crop of scouts each year, have older scouts that actually WANT to work with younger scouts, etc. etc. etc.

 

I read those posts and I wonder how you guys ever got there. It seems such a lofty goal for our little troop. Sometimes, especially after a particularly difficult or disappointing troop meeting, I'll read one of those posts and just think to myself..."there's just no way we'll ever get there."

 

I was a bit more active on the forum for a while, even offering advice when I thought I had something worthwhile to say. Recently, I haven't had much of anything to offer. At this moment in my scouting life, I'm feeling rather contrite about ever thinking I could give advice at all.

 

I also know that at some point in time, this will change. I'll feel confident again. After all, "tomorrow is another day."

 

 

 

[anarchist]

gwd-scouter,

 

buck up! Just do your best...want some really bad news? as you wrote;

 

"I read those posts and I wonder how you guys ever got there. It seems such a lofty goal for our little troop. Sometimes, especially after a particularly difficult or disappointing troop meeting, I'll read one of those posts and just think to myself..."there's just no way we'll ever get there."

 

Friend, you may never get there...It seems around my 'neck of the woods', the average Scoutmaster may serve 4 or 5 or even 6 years, but rarely more. I have helped 4 scoutmasters during my tenure in Boy Scouting

 

He or she may actually have the troop heading in the right direction after four or five years but it can turn around (for the worst) quickly...All you can do is try hard to leave a strong program and a strong set of new leaders...Most of the "really strong troops" have literally decades of strong history that seems to help perpetuate the system...On going, strong outdoor programs seem to attract the hard chargers and the dedicated leaders needed to keep programs running.

 

Our troop (54 years old and counting) draws from three to four packs every year...while we do not get all the Webelos crossovers (nor would we want to)...we do get a good number of those packs Leadership corp...Den leaders, Cubmasters and CCs...These folks know what experience they want for their sons and seemingly gently 'guide' them towards such a decision. We currently count two past cub CCs, and three past Cub masters in our ASM corp.

 

Occaisionally, a SM comes along with 2 or 3 or (God bless him/her)even 4 sons and you end up with an "institution" but that is rare these days (our first Scoutmaster led this rural troop for 20 years!). Even with long serving SMs the troops go through good years and bad...good SPLs and really bad ones...good recuitment years and some not so good....

 

So buck-up, square those shoulders...and 'grin at the devil'!...What you do is for the boys and one or two of them (we hope) will one day remember that 'kind and helpful' Scoutmaster and pay it all back! (I know I have tried to do just that (pay-back)for over 13 years now!)...And thank you for what you do!

 

Anarchist

[AvidSM]

I see Kahuna's point. I was much happier with scouting when I didn't know about all the negative things.

 

And, gwd-scouter, you hit the nail right on the head with me. I know exactly what you are going through. I don't think anything could have prepared you (or me) to take over as SM. You would think that six years as ASM would help, but it didn't. I hit the same wall you did. I'll I can say is don't give up and try to remember why would wanted to be SM in the first place.

 

I find this forum useful in that I get to read about how other scouters do things. We should try to help each other out when we run into problems. Yes, there are a lot of people who just like to hear themselves talk (or type). Seems like there are some who were never scouters or havn't been for a while.

 

Bottom line is that opinions are like belly buttons ... everybody's got one.

[mk9750]

Kahuna,

 

I too feel bad for the loss the forum will experience if you go. However, I hope you take the advice of a couple of wise folks here and take a sabatical rather than leave entirely.

 

I found myself getting too involved in discussions regarding minutia that, regardless of how they were resolved (if at all), the solution would make almost no difference in the lives of the people I serve. When combined with the insessant bickering of two particular people, both of whom I admired, I felt that I was better off to reduce my investment in the forums. I check in from time to time, and occasionally there is a topic from which I learn, or, more rarely, for which I think I have some insight.

 

But for the most part, I have found a very comfortable balance. I hope you too find a level of involvement in these forums that makes you comfortable, yet still allows for some participation. But if not, I wish you the best (as does most everyone else, it seems), and hope you continue being a positive influence on the lives of the young men you serve.

 

Mark

[Fuzzy Bear]

Kahuna,

 

I respect you and the time that you have spent here and your many contributions. You are most likely leaving the Forum for possibly all of the right reasons. You may also be taking a much needed vacation or you may simply need to seek other vistas. Most here seemed to have experienced something meaningful whether it was opinion, fact or emotion, so I assume treasure is being carried away. I believe that this place is a good place to camp, of course it is not the only one and camping is not the only activity, even in Scouting.

 

Since I first began writing in this forum, I was once accused of being the reason for all of the bad things in Scouting, so with a label like that it kind of makes me an expert on the negatives. I have also had run-ins with a couple of other fellows here and neither time was it a red letter day for me. I wish I had held my peace, had reason to reach for patience, and/or sought guidance from above but the small earthly things appeared more important and were fed by an over abundance of pride so I held to the lesser road instead.

 

My wife, a person rich in insight, love and resilience has on numerous occasions fell victim to a husband who is also possibly the reason for things being bad elsewhere. She has shown courage in the face of bad argumentation and indifference to reasoning that falls far short of significant. As I have learned from her over the years, the outcome of such conflict is nothing more than a red face, an apology, forgiveness, a renewal for a search for alternatives, forgetting of the reasons of the initial conflict and a closer communion. That relationship has come to be my understanding of marriage.

 

In Scouting we are not married to each other but we take an oath of friendship. We may also camp together on the tops of mountains and view sites that defy words and that can rarely be captured in pictures but the opposite experiences are also often the case. Our circle of friendship remains in spite of differences and because we are destined to have them but we are still bound together. I hope the best for you on your impending voyage and will be hoping for your safe return wherever and whenever that may be.

 

FB