Consequences

[Eamonn]

I'll admit that I still like the idea of Scouting being a safe haven.

I have a bit of a hard time with the idea of the "Controlled Risk" idea, even though I know it makes sense.

As a Lad growing up in a Irish Catholic home it seemed to me that life was very much about consequences. Fail to do something and at some place or time there would be a penalty.

Fail to do something at home and there was a chance you could lose your allowance.

Fail to do something at school and at that time corporal punishment was allowed.

Fail to follow the rules of the church and you faced eternal damnation.

While I have no way of ever knowing, I think all of this played a big part in molding me into the person that I am today.

It could be said that it worked?

Looking back it seems that everything was very much Black or White, Good or Bad.

If you done good you got rewarded and if you done bad you got punished.

At that time I didn't give this very much thought, it was the way it was and I just accepted it.

We as adults are very aware that we face consequences.

On one hand if we do well, we live better or more comfortably. We are rewarded with material possessions and have a good chance of spending our time doing things (Activities, work) that we enjoy or gives us a measure of satisfaction.

On the other hand, if we don't things aren't so good.

Some people might say that luck, fate or chance plays a part in some of this. I'm not a great believer in luck.

For a very long time I didn't see a need to share the Vision and Mission Statements of the Boy Scouts of America with the youth members I serve. Looking back I think this selfishness on my part.

Back home in England when I was an adult leader, I can't remember ever talking or hearing about a Vision or Mission Statement. I know at that time I thought it was far more important to organize and deliver activities than give much thought as to why we were doing them !

I do remember from the training's I received learning the purpose of Scouting. Which at that time over there was: The physical, mental and spiritual development of the young people, so they become worthwhile members of society. Of course that was over 20 years ago and I see it has changed and now reads:

The purpose of Scouting is to promote the development of young people in achieving their full physical, intellectual, social and spiritual potentials, as individuals, as responsible citizens and as members of their local, national and international communities.

 

Back here in the BSA our Vision Statement :

The Boy Scouts of America is the nation's foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training.

In the future Scouting will continue to

Offer young people responsible fun and adventure;

Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law;

Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership;

Serve America's communities and families with its quality, values-based program.

Both the Mission and Vision statement use the:

Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law.

I happen to like the wording of the Mission a little better because it states:

Prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes.

In the other Thread, I was asked what the consequence would be if a Scout didn't follow the Scout Law and Oath?

I don't think that there is enough information in the question for me to be able to provide an answer.

A few years back we were preparing for a Wood Badge course, I had two ordained Ministers on staff. Jokingly I said to them that I wanted them to have a word with their "Boss" about ensuring it didn't rain while the course was on.

One very quickly replied that he was "In sales, not service."

I used to think that this "Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law, was something that was just up to the adults.

I was wrong.

If we start agreeing that the Oath and Law applies to all of us who are old and mature enough to grasp and have a understanding of it. We are all in the "Installation".Youth members can and should play as big a part as adults.

A little while back Eagledad (Barry) posted something which if I remember correctly went something like: Scouts is the real world scaled down to boy size (I'm sorry Barry if I have got it wrong.)

If we are ever going to have any success in preparing young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes, we have to give the opportunities to make choices.

Our role as Scouts and Scouter's is to guide and do our best to ensure that no real harm is done.

We provide information and guidance.

At times one of the hardest things we do is allow a Scout to make a not so good choice.

Of course when it comes to the health and safety of the youth in our charge these concerns will over-ride all others.

Because we have taken the Scout Oath we would never intentional set anyone up for failure. We do however use failing as a tool to teach and install not only practical lessons, but ethical lessons as well.

Doing this within the perimeters of the Oath and Law is not always easy.

Of course with a lot of practical situations we point out that the consequences for getting it wrong are or could be harmful even fatal.

I like to think that we do a good job of teaching /installing ethical thinking in the young people we serve by stressing the daily good deed, service to others and by placing young people in leadership positions.

Leadership can go a very long way into helping a young person really grasp ethical thinking.

It also places him or her in a situation where the consequences for not making good and ethical choices have a bigger impact.

Of course we as adults can take away the choices; leaving only "Do it this way" or "Don't do it". I really don't seem this as much of a choice and it doesn't offer any real opportunity to lead.

We can use tools like Reflections, self-assessment's, well run BOR's and Scoutmaster conferences to deal with a lot of the consequences that our youth members run into.

We can remind Scouts and Scouter's that they have have taken the Scout Oath and have stated that they will obey the Scout Law.

We can exploit the fact that they look up to us and see us as an example. Not to drive home the point that when they fail to live up to the Oath and Law that they have disappointed or let us down, but they have let themself down.

Eamonn.

 

 

[funscout]

I think consequences work best in teaching a lesson, when they are natural consequences. When my son was a first-time Den Chief at Cub Scout Day Camp, he was almost "punished" for forgetting his Den Chief hat. The Camp director was going to make him clean up all the litter around the entire camp, but this wouldn't have taught him to be better at remembering, it would have taught him that this woman was MEAN! Now, if my son had been littering, then I would have naturally expected him to pick up any litter in the vicinity.

 

At Boy Scout camp, when my son forgot an item, he got better at remembering, because the natural consequence was that he had to go all the way back to his camp site to retrieve it. Another natural consequence was that his buddies let him know that were REALLY tired of having to go back with him! If the leaders had simply taken away a privilege, that would not have taught him as well as the natural consequences did.

 

Disclaimer: Having said my piece about natural consequences, please don't think that I would go to the extreme of allowing a boy to suffer a natural consequence that would be dangerous or unhealthy.

[Eagledad]

My gosh you are good. You hit the nail on the head.

 

What makes scouting so hard is while the program is for our sons, it is an adult program. That can be good or bad but I find in general that it is bad bcause we set the limitations on the boys in their activities. What makes your post so hard Eamonn is that I've come to obseverve that most all the limitations we put on these boys in our program comes from our fears, not our dreams.

 

I was talking to a new father yesterday and I was telling him that boys are natural dreamers, but our culture today fears new ideas and tends to hold dreamers down. I suggested that when his son gets around 10 or so, find a place, maybe a scout troop that will allow his son to express his dreams and pursue them to their end. I can think of very few other programs where a boy can dream of being a man and try to make that dream come true except a Scouting Unit. But the adults of such a unit need courage to watch a dream different than their own. Adults need the patience to watch failure and the humility to watch success. Scouting is safe because the adults hand over their trust that they will follow boy on his path to manhood and not lead them toward their own fearful visions of a man.

 

Eamonn is right, Scouting is the real world scaled down to a boys size. For a boy dreaming to be a man, just how much better can it get than a Scout Troop where the main restrictions are only the law and oath? Is it so hard to imagine sailing around the world? Is there any more honor before God than helping a our youth might live that dream?

 

What a wonderful place a Scout Unit can be. Thanks Eamonn for for your wonderful thoughts.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

 

[Eamonn]

I think I need to shy away from posting in the early hours.

This was never intended to be as long as it turned out to be.

We do need to remember that consequences can not always be bad.But if we are looking for instant gratification it might not always work out that way.

A very long time ago I thought I wanted to be a teacher. I love English history and liked working with kids. I went to college and through teacher training and landed a job in a very large school in the London area. I stuck it out for about a year and found that I hated it.

I wasn't sure what had gone wrong?

Now with the passing of time I see that I didn't do a very good job of connecting with the students. Because I loved history, I didn't understand why they didn't! For a very long time when asked I would say I quit because the kids didn't want to be there.

I don't know if it is possible to really get to know 250+ kids. I now know that I didn't really try.

One really nice thing about Scouts and Scouting is that it is all about relationships.

We are all given the opportunity to really get to know each other really well.

If we take the time we can get to know what dreams each of our Scouts have. Once we have that information we can really guide and support him. (Or her)

This becomes a lot easier for us (the adults) if we understand and are doing our best to live by the law and oath.

The youth we deal with are very perceptive, they can see through us they know if we really care.

Over the years I have known some really great outdoors men, hikers,campers, who have failed to understand that just being good at what they do and loving what they do isn't what Scouting is all about. These people are very useful and can do a lot of good.

What might some people might find a little surprising is how right the BSA is on this and how good the material is.

I'm sorry that I don't buy into the idea that not working toward installing ethical values is OK,if it eliminates a problem. (I'm referring to the cursing topic.) In my book this is not the way we should do things and it falls flat when we are trying to set examples of true leadership.

A little while back I was having a conversation with a really nice fellow who is a Sea Cadet Leader (I can't remember his rank.) We were talking about how alike the program he is in and Sea Scouting can be. I mentioned that one big difference was the way we disciplined our youth members. I went on to mention that in the Cadets if a youth didn't do what he should he would be expected to do push ups, where as in Sea Scouting we would try and find a way of getting the Scout to see what he had done and come up with his /her solution of doing right. He maintained that if a Cadet had done the push ups, he wasn't lightly to repeat the offenses. I agreed with him but said that our way made the Scout think.

funscout, gives a couple of examples of situations that maybe don't seem earth shattering, but in the "Boy's World" might be a big deal to the boy.

If as in the case with the Day Camp Director, the Lad sees the punishment as not being fair. He will resent it and will lose respect for the person who imposed it.

While we would hope that all Scouts would respect adult leaders. The Day Camp Director will find that it's a lot more difficult to be a leader after this.

Funscout went on to post:

"Now, if my son had been littering, then I would have naturally expected him to pick up any litter in the vicinity. "

I can't help thinking that it would be better if (and maybe this is what did happen.) someone took the time to ask what Scout Law /Laws littering went against? And the Lad volunteered to pick up the litter.

A lot of times the natural consequences can be the best lesson. Using the Patrol Method can be a big help in allowing Scouts to see that their actions can have consequences that effect others and how others feel about them. Sometimes knowing you have let the side down can be a very powerful lesson.

Eamonn.

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

Consequences aren't always bad. But if Scouting is the real world scaled down then there does need to be consequences or we are setting these boys up for failure because there are consequences in the real world.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Eamonn]

Consequences result from everything we do and a Scout would do.

Carry your umbrella and when it rains you don't get as wet.

Forget it and you don't stay as dry.

One big difference between what might be called the real world and the scaled down Boy Scout world is that in the Scout world we are preparing young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law and training young people in citizenship, service, and leadership.

Everything we do is about training and preparing young people to make choices.

Where as in the "Real World" the goal has more to do with punishment.

Our goal is to see young people choosing to do the right thing, because it is the ethical and right thing to do.

I see a big difference between this and doing the right thing because they fear getting caught doing the wrong thing and having to face the consequences.

While the final result might seem the same, we are instilling ethical thinking, not just punishing.

We would all hope that the consequence of or the outcome of a Lad being a Scout that he will grow up to be a good citizen who makes ethical choices and uses the oath and law in his daily life.

If more people had these values what a wonderful place the world would be.

Eamonn.

(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[evmori]

Teaching boys to make ethical & moral choice can have consequences both good & bad. Consequences are the result of actions both in Scouting & the real world.

 

Where as in the "Real World" the goal has more to do with punishment.

 

Maybe in your world but not mine and I would guess probably not most people's real world. That's a grim view of reality.

 

The real world is also about training & making ethical & moral decisions.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Kahuna]

Good points, Eamonn.

 

Bill Hillcourt used to say that sports for kids are scaled down: Little League diamonds are scaled down from adult ones; Pop Warner fields the same. Scouting, however, is a program created for boys and not scaled down from something else. Probably another way of saying what you said, but it demonstrates something unique about scouting.

 

 

[Eamonn]

Ed

You posted:

"Following the Scout Oath & Law is the best way to go. But there are no immediate consequences for not following it. The Cuss Cup has immediate consequences & kids understand immediate consequences better."

 

"So if a Scout doesn't live to the Oath or Law, what happens, Eamonn? "

 

"Thanks for not answering the question."

 

"...there are penalties for bad language & behavior. And the purpose is initially to stop the bad language and/or behavior & then prevent future incidents. "

 

Then today you post

"Where as in the "Real World" the goal has more to do with punishment.

 

Maybe in your world but not mine and I would guess probably not most people's real world. That's a grim view of reality"

Ed Have you been watching too much Monty Python?

I think I know one sketch with John Cleese that has to do with arguments that would seem to fit.

Eamonn.

 

[evmori]

I love Monty Python! But Monty Python isn't the real world either!

 

You posted Where as in the "Real World" the goal has more to do with punishment, Eamonn. I just referenced it in my post. I suggest you go back & read my last post!

 

It's only a little rabbit!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10