new scout wants to go back to webelos?

[Herms]

I have to agree with Ed and EagleinKY, better to take him out of Scouts for a while than send him back to Cub Scouts. Be patient, talk to the mom about staying out as long as she can each time. The "New Scout Patrol" has worked very well for us for about 3 years now. It really helps boys like this. Lastly, I have preached several times on different threads, get the Webelos out DURING THE SUMMER for their first campouts!

[Oak Tree]

Lisa'bob,

 

I'm with Beavah. Look around at your options for this one particular boy, and try to do what's best for him. If it's true that he does have a strong set of friends still back in the pack, and no real friends in the troop, and you perceive that the only likely way he'll stick with it is to go back to the pack, I'd let him. That presumes that the pack wants him back. If the troop won't let him be a den chief, you could always suggest that he register as a Lone Scout, and he could be a den chief that way.

 

I'm a big fan of common sense in these situations, and I agree that the advice to "tough it out" is not the right advice for some subset of the population.

 

Oak Tree

[LongHaul]

Lisabob,

Others will disagree with me I'm sure but as long as the boy is a registered scout he is covered at any and all scout functions. If he were a den chief he'd be covered, if he were assisting with the den without being a den chief he'd be covered. He is a registered scout at an approved scout function liability is covered until his registration expires. There are many occasions where my scouts attend functions without my express permission, OA meetings, patrol meetings, this would be no different. He is attending as a scout function as a scout.

 

LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

[Beavah]

Yeh say this is a medically diagnosed condition, eh? Well, then, what's da problem? The age requirements in scouting do not apply to disability conditions. Just as a boy can be allowed to be registered as a boy scout and work on ranks past his 18th birthday, same should apply to cubs.

 

I think if the parent, the boy, the den leader, caring people like yourself, etc. are all in agreement that this makes the most sense, then you know better than any of us out here in da ether, eh? Do what you think is right.

 

And talk to your DE who is paid to help you with the paperwork.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Lisa,

 

Since we're moving into the realm of special needs, are the anxiety attacks something that is RELATIVELY PERMANENT? If it is, then Council (professional and volunteer staff) will work with the family to find solutions. If this is something that will pass, then there is less wiggle room.

 

I like the idea of a 1/1 older buddy to help teach him.

 

I think Mom needs an immediate education in proper outdoor equipment. It's hard to have fun when you're up from having frozen all night long, or having been wet and cold all night long when others are dry and warm.

 

Where is Dad in all this? Is this a collateral issue to the anxiety? Is there something that he is already isolated from adult association, and removing Mom is cutting anchor chains?

 

Finally, Boy Scouts is not the be all/end all youth program. Not every young man is a fit.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Lisabob]

I think the concern that the den leader, the mom, and to some extent, I feel with a situation like this is as follows:

 

1. Boy with various difficulties joins cubs. He enjoys the program and clearly benefits from it. He wants to continue.

2. Same boy crosses over to boy scouts and gets lost. He may or may not be benefiting but he wants to quit because he isn't fitting in.

3. General answer from some adults is frequently "boy scouts is not for everyone." (not knocking anyone here who may have responded this way - I agree, it isn't and in some cases, that needs to be the answer. But sometimes this seems to get used as a convenient response rather than working hard to adapt to the needs of the boy)

 

Cubs is for everyone but boy scouts is not? Sigh. I don't want to be a social worker. But this makes me uneasy. If the boy scout program isn't flexible enough to meet the needs of boys who are off to one side or the other of "normal" then we're not doing a good job of meeting the needs of a very high percentage of boys out there. We'll end up preaching to the choir, so to speak.

 

Thanks, everyone, for your input into the situation. This is a tough one and I don't really think there's an easy answer here, but I appreciate your willingness to act as a sounding board for various ideas and approaches.

 

Lisa'bob

[SSScout]

Lisabob and other Scout friends:

I hear a familiar story here. Some personal experience, if you will. As a CM, I met a young man whose parents wanted a Cub Scout for a son, and he seemed to have a good time ,'up to a point'. His mom was very involved, his dad much less so. He was intellectually advanced for his age, and often fell back on making himself 'superior' to his fellows. At first,he exhibited a strange behavior: He refused to button any shirt but would wear the neckerchief. His mom allowed this. But when I finally came up one meeting and told him I wanted him to look good and proceeded to button his shirt, he let me and thereafter he always came with his shirt buttoned. He eventually dropped out, but not before he had earned Wolf. Is Scouting for every boy (or parent?) Evidently not, if our experience with recruiting of late is any evidence.

I feel that any boy can benefit and have a good time in Scouting. Making that possibility available is the responsibility of parent, Scoutleader and peer Scout. Back when I was working on my Candle Dipping merit badge, my Troop recognized that the a new Scout's first trip out shouldn't necessarily be a 20 mile backpacking trip in the Adirondacks in January. Even tho the new Scouts (me) were inserted in the Patrols, there were 'easy' trips planned along with more 'advanced' activities. I've seen Troops use the "new patrol" method to good effect, I've also seen today's Troop use the 'old style' way.

Mom seems to be aware of the situation. I also would ask, where's dad? Falling back to Cub Scouts? Not appropriate, not 'legally'allowed, not productive. I like the "buddy scout" idea alot. Graduated activities (Troop level and Patrol level)are important to educate and encouage new Scouts. Rank advancement is not the end all, be all of Scouts. I wish more Troops would see this. If a boy does not reach First Class in his first year, is not the end of his Scouting world. Even tho our goal is "Boy Run", us Scouters need to be proactive in encouraging beginners activities and training along with allowing the older Scouts rein in planning the bigger more challenging activities.

If we make it impossible for new Scouts to 'keep up' in the initial hikes and camps, how can we expect them to do anything but drop out?

 

YiS

[Newbie Den Leader]

Dont send him back to Cub Scouts because he will regress rather than progress. He has to get out of the cradle and stay out. Encourage him to stay with the Boy Scouts but take it slow at first. He will mature in Boy Scouts but it will take him a little more time than the other boys. Go slow and dont require him to attend every single campout or outing. Do encourage him to be at every Troop meeting to stay informed and active with the Troop program. There is a huge difference between Scouts who are 11 and 14.

 

That said, there will be a point where he will need to tough it out if he is going to learn how to Be Prepared. Boy Scouts are not for everyone and some boys do not assimilate well to an intensive camping and outdoors program.

 

I can relate to this young man because I was just like him. I stayed in the Boy Scouts for 4 years with wonderful memories. I started out scared to death of bugs, snakes, and the dark. Before I left I was a Senior Patrol Leader and in the Order of the Arrow.

 

[AkelaT]

The sad truth is that none of us have enough first hand knowledge of this situation to give truly good advice as to the proper course of action. This is a matter that can only be settled between the SM, WL, and parents, and only after discussions with the boy. As a few posters have noted this is not an either/or situation, let the appropriate parties make the call to avoid what could result in a lifelong traumatic dilema for the boy.

[Newbie Den Leader]

Akela,

 

True. We're not there and we don't know this Scout. However, Lisabob did ask us in the opening post, "Any thoughts?".

 

I'm confident that Lisabob can sift through the advice that is useful and throw out the advice that is totally useless for this situation (mine included).

 

[Lynda J]

Sorry guys but a Den Chief needs to be very mature and show responsibility.

Qualifications:

Be an older, experienced Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or Venturer who has been a Boy Scout. Selected by the senior patrol leader and Scoutmaster, Varsity Scout Coach, or Venturing Advisor at the request of the Cubmaster or Webelos den leader. Preferably a former Cub Scout; ideally at least First Class rank. Approved by the Cubmaster and pack committee for recommendation to the Webelos den leader. Registered as a youth member of a troop, team, or crew.

 

Responsibilities:

The Webelos den chief's responsibilities are to

 

Know the purposes of Cub Scouting.

Help Webelos Scouts achieve the purposes of Cub Scouting.

Serve as the activities assistant at Webelos den meetings.

Set a good example through attitude and uniforming.

Be a friend to the boys in the Webelos den.

Help lead weekly den meetings.

Help the Webelos den in its part of the monthly pack meeting.

Meet regularly with the Webelos den leader to review den meeting plans.

Help Webelos den leaders as requested.

Help Webelos Scouts in their work with activity badge counselors.

Help the Webelos denner and assistant denner to be leaders.

Receive training from the den leader (and Cubmaster or assistant Cubmaster) and attend Den Chief Training.

Help with Webelos overnight campouts and other outdoor experiences.

Help with joint Webelos Scout-Boy Scout activities.

Keep in contact with the assistant Scoutmaster in the troop.

Help the assistant Scoutmaster and Cubmaster plan graduation ceremonies for Webelos Scouts.

 

Sending a kid who has just come out of Webs back into the pack is a mistake. We don't allow boys to be Den Chiefs until they have reached 1st class.We also require that they be at least 3 years older than the Den they are working with.

They need to be a mentor, If they are to close in age to the boys they are working with they can't do that.

 

They need to have skills and be able to teach those skills to the younger scouts.

 

One thing I would do is remove Mom from the picture. See what happens if she isn't there. I don't know how many times I have had a kid that I have had problems with about running to mama or daddy and let them not be there and there are no problems.

For how long will Mama be his back up.

 

Lisa what if one week you talked to the boy about needing to plan something the next week that would be a surprise for the parents and that it would be nice if his mother wasn't there so she wouldn't know about the surprise. Then have him help plan a program that all the boys were involved in.

Maybe a skills game, with knots, lashing, etc. THen the next week have parents come and watch the boys present a skills game.

Then brag on him about how well he did without his mother there.

 

I have spent most of the past 45 years working with kids. And only a couple of times have I seen kids that couldn't be weaned from mom or dad.(This message has been edited by Lynda J)(This message has been edited by Lynda J)

[Lisabob]

Follow Up:

 

Unfortunately it hasn't worked out too well and this young man decided to quit scouts. Additionally, the webelos den leader (who has another 8 or 9 boys crossing into a troop next February) is upset with how things have worked out because she really connected with this scout when he was in her den and she feels that we didn't do enough to work with him. She's looking for other troops for next year at this point. Not sure that I blame her and it pains me to say that.

 

Actually we're having a bit of a rough time with the new scouts right now; another boy quit yesterday. Some of it, I believe, has to do with how the first year experience is set up in this troop (rather more hands off by adult leadership than in other troops in the area). Some has to do with this particular mix of kids, several of whom have behavioral or emotional disorders, difficult family lives, or all of the above. When you mix a hands-off style with a volatile group of young boys who aren't used to being on their own and aren't very mature even for their young age, there can be collateral damage. The least secure of them or the most sensitive, or most sheltered, or what have you, are likely to fall by the wayside. Or maybe get pushed to the wayside.

 

Anyway that's my take. It is not the take of several of the ASMs & SM who tend to see this either as a discipline/respect issue ("those awful boys don't know how to behave!") or as new parents not supporting/understanding the difference between boyscouts and cubscouts.

 

(and those are legitimate issues too I guess, I just think that more could be done by the adult leadership to allay those concerns, if we had a more functional program for our newest scouts.)

 

I find all of this so frustrating. This troop has many strengths but when you lose large numbers of young scouts (for whatever reasons)several years running it puts a gaping hole in the troop. It suggests that something is wrong with the way you run your program for the young scouts. And yet the people who are in positions to fix it don't want to hear that they need to make some changes. Nor do they take seriously suggestions along those lines, nor welcome others into positions where change can realistically be made. Seems like the only options are stay put and go along, or leave.

 

[evmori]

Boy Scouts isn't for every Cub and every Troop isn't for every Boy Scout.

[Lynda J]

As Sm or ASM we do not run the troop, the boys do.

The troop leadership should be hands off as much as possible.

 

Monday night we crossed 4 Webs over into the troop.

After our boys did the removal of their Cub scarves and epiltes and put the Boy Scout ones on. The SPL took them into our Scout Hut, set down with them talked about what was going to be going on this summer. Gave them their troop calendars, their troop phone list. When we get new boys they are always turned over to the SPL. It has worked very well for us.

The ones that crossed over Monday night. I had calls from two of the parents about how excited their sons were and how they had been made to feel like part of the Troop immediately.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Lisabob,

 

What is the process for new cross overs in your Troop? Perhaps a better question would be, is there a process? The established leadership wants the new parents to understand that Boy Scouts isnt Cub Scouts, how is that distinction made? How are the parents educated to the differences and when does this education occur? Is there interaction with the Pack throughout the year? Or on crossover night are the parents thrown a lot of literature, troop by-laws and policies and a "see you next meeting night" at which time they are expected to be up to snuff on every intricacy of the program?

 

This is the troop that has campouts so packed with activities that advancement items cant be checked off, apparently they are also so busy they cant change troop procedure to adopt to a new group either. Just what do they have time for? And before the hoots start, I dont mean change the BSA program but perhaps changing troop program to include new scout interest wouldnt be bad. If the new cross overs would rather cycle than hike, would doing a few bike hikes be bad? If they like the Civil war, would visiting a few battlefields be feasible?. As alluded, each troop has a personality and not all boys will like the personality of a particular troop. Likewise however a troop that is vigorous and dynamic is able to change its program to match its members interests