new scout wants to go back to webelos?

[Lisabob]

Got a call from a friend of mine who is the current webelos den leader from the pack my son was in. She is a fantastic den leader - very outdoor oriented and very good with kids who don't quite fit in for one reason or another. As a result she had a combined WI and WII den this year that attracted a bunch of brand new scouts, 4 of whom crossed into our troop in February.

 

One of those boys clearly isn't meshing with the troop. He spends a lot of his time at meetings going over to his mom and whining about things (I know, that sounds awful, but he really does whine, high pitched voice and all). Mom is good - she tries to get him right back over to the patrol and the patrol leader tries to connect with him too - but this is a persistent issue. Also he went on the first campout in March (pioneering), was really cold and apparently miserable, and he elected not to go on the next (much warmer) campout. All warning signs in my eyes that this is a boy who may quit. He just doesn't seem to be on the same page as the rest of the boys, in terms of maturity. It doesn't help that the group of new boys that crossed over this year includes a high percentage of boys who are difficult to handle (severe ADD and other various conditions) and I think this particular boy is a bit lost in the fray It is a loud, boisterous, rambunctious group and he's quiet and sensitive.

 

So the WDL called me yesterday night and said this boy contacted her and asked to rejoin her den with the idea that he would cross over to the troop again next year. The WDL tells me it took him several months before he opened up to the other boys in his den ("emotionally fragile" was how she described this boy) but that once he did, he really bonded with the 4th grade boys in particular. That's the group he wants to rejoin.

 

Technically speaking, can he even do this? He is in 5th grade now and did earn his arrow of light prior to crossing over in Feb. However, he was only in cubs for a bit less than a year.

 

If, as I suspect, he can't do this, could he serve as a den chief? Normally I wouldn't think a boy who is only at the scout rank would be considered for den chief positions but maybe that would give this young man a bridge?

 

And then, pragmatically, how to broach this whole topic with the SM? The SM is a decent guy but he is not known for either his tact or his insight, particularly when it comes to younger boys who are "quirky" and their moms. (or for that matter, women in general - though I'm certain that this is not intentional.) I'm pretty sure that his response would boil down to "tough it out". That kind of response will probably result in this boy quitting scouts, and possibly in this WDL looking for a different troop for next year. And that would be a real shame (for us) because she has a phenomenal group of boys and parents in her webelos den.

 

So I need some advice. The WDL wants to know what her options are in response to this boy's request and she wants to know how to approach the SM to discuss this situation in a constructive manner.

 

As a secondary concern, this gets me thinking - again - about how to work on that difficult bridging process from webelos to boy scouts. We've made great improvements as a troop in this area over the last year but I still think more attention needs to be focused here.

 

Any thoughts? Thanks.

 

Lisa'bob

[GernBlansten]

Boy do I know what you are going through. We have a similar scout who crossed over this spring. I'm afraid he won't make it to summer camp because he is so fragile and scared. I keep seeing the deer in the headlights every meeting.

 

Could you work with the SM to make this scout a Den Chief for the den and just become less inactive in the scout troop (Not work on advancement the first year). Then when the den crosses over next year, he becomes more active with the troop with his bonded buddies from the den?

[kenk]

The young Scout would not meet the requirement for re-joining a Cub Scout pack.

 

I REALLY REALLY like the Gern's idea of making him a den chief to his former den and giving him time to adapt to Boy Scouts. A GREAT idea!

 

Other initial thoughts would be to limit Mom's presence at troop activities (unless she is a leader), identify someone else that the youth can talk with when scared or frustrated (cut the apron strings a bit), and make sure he is truely prepared for events (dressed & geared appropriately). Some leader (youth and/or adult) needs to focus on the new scouts and make sure their first year is all that it can be.

 

Even I am overwhelmed by some of the noise & craziness at troop meetings, and I am a 47 year old ASM with five years as Den Leader under my belt.

[ScoutNut]

The boy can only be a registered Cub Scout until the end of 5th grade. After that he will no longer meet the Cub Scout joining requirements. There is no way around that.

 

Since he is so emotionally immature, would he be able to do the job of a Den Chief? Being a Den Chief might be a good thing for him, but I do NOT think it should be used to make him just an "older Cub Scout". That is a REALLY bad precedent to set. If the SM agrees to this, the boy should go thru Den Chief training ASAP, and actually BE a Den Chief.

 

I also do NOT agree that he should be given a pass on working with his Boy Scout Troop for the next year. Then you are back to making him into an "older Cub Scout" again. NOT a good idea.

 

Your Troop's New Scout Troop Guide (if you don't have one - get one) should try to work more one-on-one with the boy for a while. I also like the idea of limiting his mom's presence at the meetings. If he does not have her to go to & "whine", maybe he will settle in more.

 

 

[LongHaul]

Lisabob,

A Webelos Scout can remain in the pack for six months after his 11th birthday or until the completion of the fifth grade which ever is later.(Webelos Leader Handbook page 7 bottom of page) Does this mean he can rejoin after transferring out? How old is the boy? when will he be 11 1/2? Making him a Den Chief is wrong IMO because it assigns him a POR he can't fulfill and a POR he does not deserve. One of the responsibilities of a Den Chief is to set the example, what kind of example are we setting by making this boy a Den Chief?

Personally I'd talk with your Council office about the technicality of this boy having transferred out of Cub Scouts and can he transfer back in until he is 11 1/2 (if this even makes sense time wise) Once you know what the options are decide what is best for the Scout. Worse case scenario, he is registered with the troop so if he attends Webelos Den meetings he is covered liability wise as a registered scout. If he does not attend Troop Meetings will the Troop Committee refuse his recharter next year when he wants to come over with the now Webelos? What's best for this boy? Should he be asked to "grow up"? is it a case of getting Mom out of the picture? What's in the best interest of this boy? Decide that and work toward that end.

LongHaul

(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

[John-in-KC]

Lisa,

 

What ScoutNut said, especially the questions of maturity involved in sending him back to the Pack as a Den Chief.

 

One other thought: Even though Mom is an active Scouter, it might be a good thing if she is out of sight at Troop meetings. It might be better for sons' growth and development if she is not where he can use her as a crutch. Even if the Troop Committee meets concurrently with the Troop, there are places they can be ... out of sight and hopefully out of mind from the youth.

 

Next, boy run does not mean "boys run roughshod." This young man needs to get out into the field and start learning. The very experience will help him learn independence.

 

 

[Beavah]

Technically speaking, can he even do this? He is in 5th grade now and did earn his arrow of light prior to crossing over in Feb. However, he was only in cubs for a bit less than a year.

 

Who cares about technically, eh? Our job isn't to be technical, our job is to do what's right for da boy. The Oath and Law don't have an exception for "technical."

 

I've long thought that 5th grade crossover is developmentally "too soon" for many boys. So does the BSA, because they created the hybrid "new scout patrol" to partially pull the young ones out of the regular patrol structure. Dat creates other challenges, though ... like maintaining a kind of Webelos 3 group (supported by an adult and older scout instead of a mom) in the midst of a troop that is doin' other things. NSP's tend to be really high-energy and rough on quiet kids because the older leaders have the troop program in mind, and don't usually provide quite enough "structure."

 

So let him move back if that looks like the best solution in this odd case. Get a waiver of registration requirements from your SE (call it a disability if you need to), or if you've got a good CO forget about registration and just bring him as a "guest" on the CO's insurance. Keeping a reg. in the troop works fine, too, and might be easiest. Dat's the troop committee's call, not the SM.

 

Our duty is to the boy. We adjust or ignore the paperwork to do what's right, while being mindful of our duties to protect da adults and best serve all the boys in the program.

 

 

 

[EagleInKY]

Yeah, but ya may spoil da whole batch by caterin to this one lad, eh? (Sorry Beav).

 

I don't agree with allowing him to go back unless he meets the age requirements mentioned. If he does, then it's purely within his control. I certainly don't agree with making him Den Chief. Scoutnut got that one right. He's not qualified for this position, and calling him one just to let him "play" with the Webelos is not doing him any good.

 

It sounds harsh, but I had a young lad that wanted to be Den Chief from the beginning because he enjoyed playing with the younger kids. This year I finally allowed him to be Den Chief this year. He's a 4th year scouts (Life rank). Only now is he mature enough (barely) to do the job.

 

What really scares me is how this boy will portray scouting to the Webelos. This hits close to home because of the problems I had with our Webelos den this year. One of my oldest scouts (Life working on Eagle), is quite a negative lad. He gets it honestly (from both dad & mom). His little brother was in the den. He made himself unofficial Den Chief (without my knowledge). He grumbled about how he didn't get to do this or wanted to do that... as he tends to do since he's a negative person. What was the effect? Only 1 of 11 Webs crossed over to our troop. Several didn't go on to scouting at all.

 

So, before you think about sending him back, think about how he'll answer these questions. "Say Johnny, why did you come back?", "How do you like Boy Scouts?", "How was the campout?", or "What do you guys do at meetings?". If you think he'll cast the troop in a negative light (which sounds like he will), then I would keep him far away from those guys.

 

Finally, it's maybe not so bad if he takes a break from scouts. I have had scouts quit and come back a year later. In fact I just heard that one of the boys that didn't cross over last year now wants to give it a try. Let him go inactive, but keep in touch with him. Chances are he'll miss some part of the program, and you'll have a chance at getting him back.

[evmori]

He shouldn't go back. Nor should he be a Den Chief. Limiting mom's attendance (unless she is a leader) is a start in the right direction. If the boy wants to take a break, let him. He might find out he misses Scouts. He might also find out he doesn't miss Scouts. Boy Scouts is very different from Webelos & it isn't for all Webelos.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Lisabob]

Thanks for some very interesting feedback so far and please keep it coming!

 

I brought up the situation with our ASM for new scouts - who I also asked the webelos den leader to contact. His take is that the SM would not likely support this boy serving as a den chief. So I don't think that option is going to fly. Also, the boy is 11 now and 5th grade ends in 3 weeks here so I don't think he meets the cub requirements. (As an aside, the SM apparently talked with this boy's mom and basically told her to quit babying him. This didn't do wonders for the mom's impressions of the SM...actually she does try to make herself unavailable but from what she said, the boy won't even go to troop meetings unless she promises to be nearby. She did not go on the one campout he attended and apparently that was part of the reason he was miserable - though also it was cold, he was poorly prepared, and the patrol he's in is a little on the wild side)

 

Both LongHaul and Beavah mention the insurance issue and that is a concern for the den leader. If she lets him tag along unofficially, that may become a problem. LongHaul, I'm not sure I understood correctly, but were you suggesting that if the boy did remain registered as a boy scout, that his participation in any pack or den activities would be covered by the troop's unit insurance? I wouldn't think it would work that way? But let me know if you believe that to be the case and I'll look into it further.

 

Beavah - the CO in this case is a PTO and they don't have insurance for the pack to piggy back on, at least, not that I'm aware of. The pack does have its own insurance but I wouldn't think that would cover non-members.

 

As for a waiver of cub joining requirements from the SE, what kinds of conditions might this cover? How about disorders like anxiety attacks? Is this a realistic possibility for a situation like the one here?

 

I am pretty sure that this is one of those cases where if the boy quits, he is unlikely to ever come back. He only joined cubs over the summer between 4th/5th grade and then crossed into the troop less than a year later so he didn't have much time to get into the cubbing scene before he moved on. And so far I don't think he has seen the troop as being a whole lot of "fun." So I don't think he'd come back, if we simply told him to take some time off. That might be unavoidable but I hope not.

 

Brainstorming here...how about assigning him an older "buddy" scout? Sort of a one-on-one troop guide?

 

Lisa'bob

 

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Part of our job to teach young men how to make ethical decisions over their lifetime is to lead by example and be trustworthy. However well intentioned, I would not recommend bending or breaking the age requirement rules. They exist for a reason.

 

Also, CO's are not expected to provide insurance for a unit. CO and unit liability insurance is provided thru the council.

 

http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=xx&c=ds&terms=insurance

 

Just as the local organization has responsibilities, the local council has responsibilities to the chartered organizations.

 

By recommending that an organization receive a charter from the National Council, the local council agrees to provide primary general liability insurance to cover the chartered organization and its board, officers, chartered organization representative, and employees against all personal liability judgments. This insurance includes attorney's fees and court costs as well as any judgment brought against the individual or organization. Unit leaders are covered in excess of any personal coverage they might have, or if there is no personal coverage, the BSA insurance immediately picks them up on a primary basis.

[EagleInKY]

Brainstorming here...how about assigning him an older "buddy" scout? Sort of a one-on-one troop guide?

 

We do this alot. Sometimes formally, often informally. Younger guys need that buddy, even if it's just a more mature guy from his own age-group.

 

We have a scout that is attached to his dad. He doesn't want to go anywhere his dad isn't. Frankly, it's kind of scary. Because of dad's schedule, he only makes it to one or two troop meetings a month, and about 1/3 of the outings. Needless to say, advancment ain't happenin'. We force dad and him apart, but they come back together like magnets. In our case, dad is equally part of the problem. Is it possible the mom in your case is????

[Lisabob]

EagleinKY,

 

I think the mom is aware of her son's difficulty and I think she's in a tough spot. On one hand, she wants him to separate from her and appears to take steps in that direction. On the other hand, it has to be done by degree or he has anxiety attacks. This is a medically diagnosed problem. What parent wants to cause their child serious suffering??

 

So at weekly troop meetings, for example, "mom" attends but takes frequent and lengthy walks in the hallway, seeks out other adults for conversation, and generally tries to stay out of the way an as unavailable to her son as possible. But there's a limit to how far this goes. My impression is that she is not a "hover mom" although yeah, at some point in the boy's life, he's going to need to cope without her there much more than he currently seems capable of handling.

 

Lisa'bob

[SR540Beaver]

Lisa,

 

Just out of curiousity, how does this boy handle 6 hours per day/5 days per week at school?

[EagleInKY]

Okay, I didn't catch that it was a medically diagnosed issue. Not sure what that means, but it would at least cause me to have some patience in working through the issue. I still wouldn't send him back to the den though. I'd rather him leave for a while and come back.