Squirt Guns and G2SS Gray Areas

[ChuckSt8er]

OK, I see the lively discussion on Paintball.

 

I also see the policy umbrella which, depending on which way the wind is blowing, could include or exclude squirt guns/water pistols/super soakers, etc.

 

I also have read the widespread postings on 'personal' scouting and council websites promoting events/activities where squirt guns are used as part of the activity. (Guiding a projectile at a live target.)

 

I am having our Committee Chair (also another Pack's Unit Commissioner) ask the District Executive whether squirt guns are in or out. However, I'm curious to know whether you all have a clear understanding of whether these are OK or not. Surprise, surprise, G2SS does not make this clear.

 

Guidance?

 

For the record, I firmly believe that, when conducted with common sense, this is a totally safe and fun activity for the boys. I've also seen a variety of non-squirt-gun-oriented water fun that could be done in addition to/instead of a squirt gun fight. But my question revolves around this one item/activity in particular.

[gwd-scouter]

Whoo-boy I just love this Forum! Never even occurred to me that someone would wonder about a squirt gun and the BSA policies.

 

I've heard so much about the BSA stance on shooting at a living or representation of a living target. Can someone show me exactly where that is written?

 

Because, if there is an explicit written policy about not pointing/shooting a firearm (or any kind of projectile) at a living target, then I guess we should do away with squirt guns too.

 

Whew, maybe this needs to be in the politics forum! :-)

 

 

 

 

 

[GernBlansten]

I proposed a squirt gun war for a mid summer meeting break and got shot down quickly by the committee. Big BSA NO-NO according to them. Not saying they really know though.

So we did a water ballon toss.

[gwd-scouter]

Water balloons - that brings up another subject.

 

When I was Cub Scout Resident Camp Director, the theme one year was Knights of the Roundtable. We had a gigantic water balloon catapault for the Saturday field day activities. BIG problem with all the bits and pieces of balloons all over the meadow at the end. Not exactly living up to the leave no trace principles on that one! And, there was only 24 hours between when cub resident camp was over (noon Saturday) and boy scout summer camps began (noon Sunday).

 

Fun for the Cubs, no fun for the staff. Live and learn!

 

 

[ChuckSt8er]

Guide to Safe Scouting, Sweet 16 of Safety:

"Pointing any type of firearm (including paintball, dye, or lasers) at any individual is unauthorized."

 

So, the operative word here is:

 

- Firearm: Waterguns are not a firearm.

 

Can anyone find a reference that would specifically prohibit squirt guns or super soakers?

 

BTW, good point on water balloons. We will have one serious cleanup on our hands if we're serious about leave no trace.

 

[Beavah]

- Firearm: Waterguns are not a firearm.

 

Yah, but paintball toys and lasertag gizmos aren't firearms either, eh? And yeh could put a drop of food collorin' or kool-aid in a water pistol and then it would be a dreaded dye gun.

 

The only reason given for prohibiting these (safe) activities is da bit about not pointing a "weapon-like doohickey" at another human (presumably because toy gun play offends someone's sensibilities).

 

So what about old fashioned cowboy cap-guns like when I was a kid?

Nerf guns? Those cute little ping-pong-ball guns?

I used to spend hours playin' "Army" with da neighborhood kids using sticks shaped like guns (and dry dirt clod "grenades"). Does it count if yeh point or throw those and shout "Bang!"?

 

 

[ChuckSt8er]

OK Beavah, now you've opened Pandora's box. I'm here to tear off the lid (said with a smile and a wink, rather than a sneer, just so we're all on the same page).

 

I'm here to assert that the G2SS does NOT technically prohibit laser tag, because the game does not use lasers! The game, if I understand the websites correctly, uses Infrared beams, which are not harmful to the eye, AS OPPOSED TO REAL LASERS which can permanently damage sight and therefore ARE prohibited by G2SS. There are SOME systems which do use true lasers, but these are mostly confined to commercial/technical/military systems, and are generally not available to the public.

 

This is my theory and assertion. Comments?

 

 

[FScouter]

The rule seems clear enough. Picking apart the G2SS looking for a justifiable loophole makes as much sense as the assertion in the other thread that smoking at Scouting activities is OK because the book doesn't specifically say "smoking is forbidden".

 

What is the sense of having rules if we only follow the ones we agree with? Most importantly, what are we teaching boys about responsible citizenship? When the adult role models pooh-pooh the rules of the Scouting, or any other organization, or government, that hardly helps teach boys to make ethical choices themselves.

 

It is unethical to pick and choose which rules we follow, and unethical to teach boys the same.

[seabear]

In some school systems, just pointing a finger and going bang can have a child removed from school. In this day and age, just carrying a stick could land a boy in trouble with someone; there will always be someone whom will complain. Safety is the concern, or is it the possible expose to violence that is the real concern?

Some of the survival skills and outdoor lore has skip the knowledge of hunting, uses of spears,slings, bows, throwing sticks,etc...When I was a young scout, we set snares for rabbits,gig for frogs, caught birds in nets ( which we made) fished, and gather edible plants on a hike/or camping trip, lived off the land, but we carried sheath kniives, hatches, Thumbstaffs, but that was awhile back. Times changes, let one boy be harmed and see what the real gray area is.

[evmori]

Yah, but paintball toys and lasertag gizmos aren't firearms either, eh?

 

True but they are listed! Squirt guns aren't so it would seem they are OK.

 

I love it when the leaders get all defensive about a policy because of what they interpret the meaning to be then get all literal about another! Like someone posted, ya can't have it both ways!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SR540Beaver]

Didn't we have a certain "leader of the free world" and a young intern who didn't consider their actions as sex because they didn't do the "deed"? They are still catching daily grief over that on talk radio. If it quacks like a duck.......

[Hunt]

If BSA doesn't tell us the purpose of the rule, it makes it impossible to extrapolate it to situations that don't really fit. If it's about safety, then squirtguns are probably OK, while waterballoons filled with dye are not OK. If it's about "pointing guns," then squirt guns are not OK, and water balloons filled with dye are OK.

I think the most reasonable assumption would be that the reason is safety, since it is contained in the GTSS, and not in some other policy document.

(The real truth is probably that at some time in the past, the rule simply said you shouldn't point a "firearm" at anyone, and when somebody had the bright idea to add paintball and laser tag, they just added it on rather than rewriting it as they should have done.)

[ChuckSt8er]

I've enjoyed the debate here.

 

I guess what I find most troubling is that there is so much opinion, conventional wisdom and conjecture about the rule that we've forgotten to go back and read the rule ourselves. Once I got past the hyperbole, I re-read it, and I am 100% convinced:

 

Squirt guns are 100% OK under the rules.

Laser tag (so long as it only involves infrared devices) are also allowed. However, true lasers of any sort (as a gun sight, pointing tool or otherwise) are not. If this is NOT what the drafters of the rule intended, then they need to be more explicit in what they've written. "Paintball" is clear. "Lasers" may not be.

[Hunt]

What if the rule said the following: "BSA believes that pointing a firearm or fire-arm like instrument (including a paintball gun, laser, or laser tag handset) at another individual contributes to a reduction in the concern for gun safety, and therefore any such activity is not authorized."

Would that be safety or ethics? I guess it would eliminate squirt-guns (but not water balloons or hoses).

[ChuckSt8er]

It's an interesting thought, and that might help clarify the behavior that BSA wanted to see, if that was indeed their intent.

 

I guess my disconnect comes from the fact that the rule, when interpreted literally, means one set of things. When placed through the filter of opinion and conjecture, it comes out sounding like something quite different.

 

Thanks everyone for the comments - - they're all articulate and appreciated. I'm all done with tilting at this windmill for now.