should have waited

[Eagle309]

We had Webelos cross over to our Troop at the end of Feb. They were quite tired of the Cub like activities in Webelos and wanting to move on to bigger things. Some had come on Webelos campouts with our Troop (but remember Webelos need a parent/guardian with them on a campout and for some boys this was not possible). They have been on two campouts with us so far, had a blast, and are not looking back.

[anarchist]

campcrafter and others,

long post (forgive me or just go to the next thread)

 

Several thoughts here and I hope I don't hy-jack the thread...

The 'not old enough', 'not mature enough', 'not ready for winter camping'...generally boils down to not prepared. Heck, even a new girl scout can survive a camp in the winter with the right preparation.

 

First, assuming the troops involved JUST HAVE TO HAVE your Webelos in February (something I highly doubt...and bet with some work you could push that back next year to March early April), in the future much more work needs to be done at both ends of this trail. The cub packs need to be encouraged to "up" the level of their outdoor program. More camping and outdoor training should be encouraged paticularly by the Webelos and Webelos II groups.

 

WEBELOS LEADERS MUST TAKE OUTDOOR LEADER TRAINING and use it...I get very tired of hearing "well, she or he volunteered to be the Webelos leader but she doesn't camp"...(sound the buzzer) find someone else. Get the Boy scout troop involved! They can lend older scouts, equipment, and even some leaders from time to time(I'll bet) to help "lock" your Webelos into their troop...(ain't nothin like a good camp experience to rev up a bunch of boys!).

 

"Outdoors" means just that; "out of doors"...Encourage your webelos leaders to get the boys outside...meetings held in the woods are so much more fun...even if it is a local park or a patch of woods in someones back yard...and they learn "Poison Ivy" faster if they see it in the woods instead of looking at a book in the class room! Practical use of the material and activities makes it more fun and less repititious than sitting in a room listening to lectures.

 

On the otherside of this "trail" the troop should do as much as possible to see that the first camp (in fact the first year) is fun and successful. If this means not camping 'til the temps moderate thats OK...if the troop has a campout in the frostie north... the NSP stays home...and the next week does a day hike and skills training day...Use your ASMs and troop guides to give a program tailored to the New Scouts...meetings to learn camping basics, equipment check list games, meal planning, cooking lessons...on and on...If you have Feb. crossovers...just accommodate nature and try not to "dump" on the New Scouts initial experience.

 

There is a saying (somewhere) that you are either part of the problem or part of the solution and it is very true in this instance. When my oldest son crossed over many years ago (T. rex had just gone extinct), The Troop had a great, a super, an outstanding olderboy-outdoor program...ALL of the leaders were older boys Dads. There was litereally no real effort to program for younger scouts except for summercamp...If it was "high adventure"; younger scouts were left at home...If was intimidating to younger boys...they stayed at home...if the older boys didn't quite teach the younger ones...that "you needed back up clothes for a winter trip"...kids without "smart" parents got cold or had to be taken home early...

 

In fact out of two groups of new scouts(the year before my son crossed over), there was a 50% drop rate! Quite literally a whole patrol of new scouts and their leader (she was not "a camper" and her boys were "lost")dropped out of scouting! The troop leadership at that time were "sorry"... "but thats just the way it was...some sink some swim". BTW (just for info purposes), these guys were really great people ...they just didn't "get" soft city kids and their yuppie parents...

 

My oldest son and most of his buds were "survivors" having done lots of camping it was no big stretch for them -they had been prepared. But several of us "new scout parents" saw the need for change to a "kinder, gentler troop" (sorry)... and we did make changes...We joined the leadership, We participated, We took over program responciblities for younger scouts...we worked with the SPLs to show where New Scouts needed their own activities as well as troop events and over the course of several years re-directed some of the troops energies to a more user friendly -while still outdoors oriented, troop.

 

My particular area of involvement was New Scout recuitment and retention...after all I had a younger "less engaged" son coming along and I wanted him, and his buds to get all they could out of scouting (self interest is a good thing sometimes). I immediately started recruiting new scout dads (sorry, no ladies were active at that time)who were from my pack to help, then we enlisted a new scout dad whose son dragged him to the "rogue troop" 'cause it looked like "more fun". We used his connections with another pack (he had been Cubmaster) as well as his home location on the far "edge" of our service area to increase our "exposure" to other units...(packs).

 

We then developed troop info hand-outs, our program calendars, gear lists, basic camping information (camping 101), and troop aims into parent packages that we handed out "like dollar bills in an old Chicago election". We started doing "skills" demonstrations a few times each year at pack meetings, complete with large picture boards of our scouting doing fun things and lots of handouts, setting up demonstration camp sites a local church "fairs" and best of all we started offering camping weekends and training sessions to webelos units.

 

We corrodinated our program with three packs to allow crossovers to merge with our Boy Scouting program in an almost seemless manner...numbers and rentention climbed nicely and then it soared... WE doubled our size.

 

Interestingly enough, another local pack with a May cross-over attempted a couple of times to "send cubs our way"...These kids had never camped before (pack just didn't have an outdoor program)...but just as important the newer boys who had been in our troop since late March were so far "ahead" of the "late comers"- they just never quite fit in...They did not want to sign up for summer camp( or were too late to get a slot) and no matter how hard the NSP ASM worked- we simple could not integrate those boys into the troop. Try as we did, their pack would not change its program...for a March crossover...It had to be May! (also interestingly, the pack folded several years ago :>( !)

 

New Scout parents... you are in the best position to "see" the short commings of the boy scout program your son has joined...YOU can make a difference not only for your kids but for all the kids who follow your kids! But you have to be willing to roll up your sleeves and stop talking (complaining) and start working!

 

MAKE IT HAPPEN!

anarchist

 

[SR540Beaver]

Lisabob,

 

Your point is taken about the cold...but keep in mind that it is a big country. Our March campout was climbing and rappeling and we were in t-shirts during the day and fleece pullovers at night. On the other hand, we have had snow and ice in March. Most snow we get today is gone tomorrow. Usually, our two coldest camping months are January and February. You can get some cold weather in December and March, but it is a 50/50 deal.

[gwd-scouter]

SR540 is correct about the weather here in the Southern Region!

 

One year we were getting ready for our cold weather camping trip in February. Weather here in upstate South Carolina in February is typically cold, wet and windy.

 

So, we got the guys prepared by spending several weeks before camp to go over all the necessary cold camping skills. The weekends leading up to the trip had temps of the mid 30s daytime and low 20s nighttime.

 

Then, the big weekend came - it was in the high 70s during the day and mid 40s at night. Not exactly cold weather camping!

[GernBlansten]

Our February campout (Klondoree) got down to 8 below zero F. We didn't recommend any of our recently crossed over scouts to camp with us, but join us during the day of activities with the other Weblose.

Our first campout with the new scouts is this weekend in May, but the Colorado mountains can be interesting in the spring. Looks like snow Friday night, 60s for Saturday and 70s for Sunday.

Looking at our herd of new scouts, I'd say 50% are more than ready for the campout, 30% will learn a great deal and 20% will be down right miserable and homesick. I don't expect many of the 20% to stick with scouting through the summer.

[SR540Beaver]

For the last several years, our troop has gone to the Trappers Rendezvous put on by the White Buffalo District in the Quivera Council up in Kansas. It is held the 3rd weekend of January and has been going on for 29 years. It is attended by 4,000 scouts and scouters. In 2005, it was snowing and the high on Saturday was around 10 and the low was near 0. In 2006, it was sunny with the high in the mid-50's and the low was in the 30's. You just never know. In fact, in 2005 the temps had been in the 50's until a cold front blew thru the day before the event.

[Lisabob]

SR540Beaver, I agree completely - big country, lots of different circumstances. (So why is it that almost everybody does cross over at about the same time?) If late winter cross over works for some units, great. Not my intention to discourage them! My point was only that I don't think it has worked especially well for us, for a variety of reasons.

 

A couple of people have mentioned holding separate events for the new scouts or not sending them on the first campout that comes up after cross over, if the conditions are likely to be tough.

 

I'm curious about how that goes over and how many folks do this? We have not tried it - and honestly I think the suggestion would go over like a lead balloon - but I am intrigued. Fair or not, the counter-arguments I would expect are:

 

1) This delays integration into the troop and

2) The new scouts are all excited about joining the troop and participating in troop activities, and won't like being left out and

3) the dreaded "webelos III" notion (if you run a separate program just for your new scouts) and

4) could make attending troop meetings pretty dull for new scouts- because much of the troop meeting is focused on activities related to the upcoming campout, which the new scouts wouldn't be attending

 

The positives I imagine are:

1) gives the new scouts an experience that is appropriate to their level of skill while allowing older scouts to do something more challenging

2) allows for bonding among new scouts

3) maybe increases retention

4) might allow for bonding between troop guide(s) and new scouts

 

Tell me more.

 

Lisa'bob

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>WEBELOS LEADERS MUST TAKE OUTDOOR LEADER TRAINING and use it...I get very tired of hearing "well, she or he volunteered to be the Webelos leader but she doesn't camp"...(sound the buzzer) find someone else.

[gwd-scouter]

We've experienced both types of new Scouts the past year. Last year, we got one new Scout about 3 weeks before we left for summer camp. That was his first experience with the Troop and he's still with us going strong.

 

Last March we got two new 11 year-olds. Their first trip with us was our April backpack trip. A bit strenuous for one of the lads, but the other loved every minute of it. Both complained about how cold it was at night (high 20s in the mountains). But, both are eager for this weekend's Council Exporee, signed up for summer camp pathfinder program (for new Scouts), and seem to be enjoying themselves with the Troop.

 

This weekend, we are taking two Webelos to the Council Exporee. These guys will be crossing over to our Troop in a couple of weeks. I'm a little nervous taking these guys since I haven't even met them. Their Webelos leader is somewhat the type described by EagleDad and has been ready to give up her den and have these boys get into Boy Scouts for over a year. They have very little camping experience, so our PL will have his work cut out for him this weekend.

 

Like EagleDad, I would prefer to get our new Scouts all at once rather than the dribs and drabs we've been getting. But, being such a small Troop and trying hard to increase our numbers, we'll take them any time of the year.

[funscout]

Our Pack "graduates" the Webelos II den towards the end of February, and they go to their first Boy Scout meeting the beginning of March. At first I wasn't crazy about my 10 year old being in a group with teenagers, but he loved it, and he has matured SO much since he crossed over 2 years ago. I'm glad he had March-June to experience Boy Scouts, before going to Summer Camp in July. All but one of his patrol-mates went to summer camp that first summer, and the one hold-out couldn't wait to go the next year (it was his mom who wasn't ready for him to be away from home!)

 

LisaBob, our troop is offering a two-level week-long campout this summer, where younger scouts can stay at a base camp and get a traditional camping experience, while the older scouts can go back-packing for part of the week. This will allow all scouts to go on the trip, but adds more of a challenge for the experienced scouts. Could your troop offer a camp-out close to home in March? Then, if the weather is going to be too extreme for the new boys, they could participate during the day, but not stay over night.

 

When my younger son becomes a Boy Scout next March, I am planning on volunteering to be a liaison between the troop and pack. I'd like to make sure the Webelos-to-scout transition is a smooth one.

 

Not having been through Boy Scout leader training, yet, I don't know if this is a possibility or not, but could the new boys each have an older boy assigned to him for the 1st camp-out, so they would have one scout they knew they could go to for help? I know all the scouts are supposed to be helpful, and questions should go to the SPL, but I think it would be helpful to have an assigned "big brother" to keep an eye on his new scout. Our troop uses new scout patrols, so that PL would be too inexperienced to help his patrol mates on the first camp-out. Last year, one of our new scouts was miserable throughout the first camp-out, because he couldn't get warm and was too shy to ask a leader or older scout for help. If he had had an older scout assigned to him, he might have been willing to confide in him. This boy dropped out of scouts soon after the camp-out. (he had not had any previous camping experience with his pack)

 

[AwHeck]

Our troop program is planned around the Webelos crossing over in February. We have a New Scout/New Parent orientation the first Saturday in March where the new scouts are placed into patrols, decide on their patrol names etc. They all earn their Scout rank on that day and start on the Tenderfoot requirements. Advancement at troop meetings for the younger scouts is also keyed to this time frame. We have had a few scouts cross over later in the year and they have to work harder to catch up to where the other scouts are.

 

We try to plan our March and April campouts so that the new scouts can be in a cabin in case of cold weather. Being in the Colorodo Foothills, we have a troop policy that NO scout can camp in tents during the "winter months" (Nov - April) until they've attended our own Troop's Winter Camp training which is planned for a Saturday in early November each year. This has resulted in a few 3rd or 4th year scouts missing a few campouts a year because they weren't able to make the training but in reality has not been a problem. We have our traditional New Scout Campout the first weekend in May where the scouts learn how to set up troop tents, troop stoves etc.

[anarchist]

Short answer to lisabobs question on offering different stuff for the NSPs...

 

You simply have to offer them different things if you have a well rounded program. After all, you have to keep them busy and engaged while the older boys white water canoe, rock climb, or go caving...(all of which have skill and or age requirements)...Just as important if you "tone" down the program so the young scouts can do everything the older boys do...before long the older boys are bored...then gone!

 

So make sure that the PLC plans a varied and valuable program that allows for different interests and ages and skills. You then add to this by insisting that the patrol do events/activities "all their own" and "on their own"...

 

Not everyboy goes on every event, some by lack of interest, some by lack of skill, rank, or age. Many of our boys even as Life scouts have never been on a caving trip...(go figure) it doesn't interest them or makes them apprehensive...('course, these are not commercial caves...we do the private "crawl through keyholes on your back in 50 degree muddy water, rappel down and chimney crawl back up type caves where Moms burn the clothes afterwards rather than put them in their washer). Many of our young scouts simply can't wait til they get a chance to crawl in the mud...sometimes anticipation is really good!

 

Troop meetings are not necessarily "all the troop all the time" (Heck ours are mostly "Patrol Time") The troop almost never works as a "troop" unit towards upcoming events/activities...even troop events. 99% of the preparation is done as patrols; planning, classes, drills or skills training is done in small patrol groups...easier to teach, easier to control and easier to assess.

 

Teaching new scout patrol scouting skills takes longer and is much more "Adult leader intensive...even just monitoring). While we never work on merit badges in troop meetings the NSP frequently works on skills and activities that lead to rank "Sign Offs"...so why would you bore the older boys who are not involved in teaching?....There is plenty of time during the goof off period of "gathering" (before the meeting starts), openings and closings, troop business, anouncements and the troop games for troop unit bonding. And frankly it is (IMHO) far more important for the NSP to learn skills and BOND to their patrol...they will have plenty of time to bond as a troop member but the sooner they look at their patrol as "mates" or "buds" the sooner they start really having fun in scouting.

 

We start them with 'working' towards their own first campout before they even crossover. That shakedown is just for the NSP and instructors so they learn the ropes and are not embarrassed infront of older scouts at the first troop camp or District Camporee. We even arrange separate or multi-distance hikes and bike hikes for the younger scouts (not just the NSP)so they are not left in the older scouts dust... Many will go on the 5 or 10 milers but not on the 20 or 50 milers.

 

Car camping, hike-in camping, multiday hike-camping trips appeal to different scouts and different skill/age levels we try to offer a multi year well rounded program.

 

We offer "family oriented" weekend canoe trips on easy rivers, then some tougher trips on 'better' water and finally a 100+ miler on a great river(for 14 yr olds and up)...this allows everyone an opportunity to learn and grow with out being "scared out" of the event or the program.

 

As scouts feel "able", and as they attain rank/age- the high adventure activities "open up for them". It's sort of a natural progression...(IMO) If your program is not designed to offer all levels of challenge- you either loose the young or you loose the older boys...its better to design a multi-level program to keep all the boys interested.

 

try it you'll like it.

anarchist

[Beavah]

Anarchist, how big is your troop?

 

Seems like a much higher plannin' load than normal for an average set of PLC boys, eh?

 

 

[anarchist]

Beavah,

 

Troop swings between 58-65 scouts each year depending on the size of group aging out vs numbers of New Scouts. Varies between five and seven patrols.

 

Planning is not that difficult, we have the SPL do a formal written membership "program survey" in July on the bus trip home from summer camp to find out what the boys are looking forward too in the comming year. The PLC meets and does a rough plan in August and the SPL has several meetings with the SM to firm up the plan and merge the plan with the school calendar and known district events.

 

In Late August the plan is presented to the Troop Committee by the SPL for acceptance and the adults "rough-out" how we are going to support the program. The troop committee rarely make suggestions to change any part of the program...Program belongs to the boys, the committee supports and helps implement (we are well trained)

 

I see no major difficulty in planning...we have on average two activities/events per month, many of the activities are annual variations on the same theme (location may change... but a river trip is a river trip). The troop is over 53yrs old and has several traditional activites that almost plan themselves now.

 

The multi layer planning is simply a matter of consistantly asking the question "is every age group being served this month??? If the SM or ASM whispers this in the SPL and PLC ears enough...the thought becomes habitual. Not being a bunch of new scouts in a new troop we have the past (and a pretty good 'past' ten years if I do say so myself)as a working template. Our boys have seen the good and the bad and try to plan to avoid the bad...(doesn't work all the time but mostly...)

 

Bike Hike, for instance, Boys want to plan a 50 miler to finish their merit badge requirements...GREAT! now how do we serve boys who can't "do" 50????They make plans to "take younger scouts out" at 5 or 10 or even 15 miles..." not a lot of planning...but requires alot of parental support once planned.

 

Over the next two weekends we have three patrols doing patrol campouts...Two younger patrols are camping one beside a lake and the other on a farm with a large "run" (creek) ...with fishing as the main focus. The third patrol will be on a large impoundment (lake) learning flat water canoe basics. Three weeks from now we have a troop campout at the beach.

 

Beav...where do you see difficulty for the PLC?

Anarchist

[penguinatheart]

to answer the question about girl scouts

 

i'm a ten year girl scout with lots of camping experience. our girls start overnight camping in first grade, with their first opportunity for a week long camp in our council coming in fourth grade. these girls are nine, having just finished third grade. however, i have a younger brother who was in boy scouts and i think girl scouts works a little differently. it seems in boy scouts almost everyone goes to summer camp and they go together as a troop. this isnt the case for girl scout camp. it's completely independant.