Balancing Adult Relationships Method

[Beavah]

In the thread on powerful scoutmasters, SR540Beaver writes:

 

Heck, the adults stay in the adult area. We have an SPL, ASPL's and PL's that are in charge over in the boy area. We come over if asked or if we see something that needs to be addressed.

 

I hear this a lot here and other places. Youth Leadership and Patrol Method do need some "space" to work... when da boys are ready. But it seems to me that we have an obligation to balance that with other methods like Adult Relationships and Values. Boys can't benefit from adult relationships if adults are off in their own "clique" most of the time, and we aren't the best example of the Oath and Law if we show them that those who are the most experienced stay aloof and unhelpful.

 

This also came up in the Venture Patrol thread, eh? Where Venture Patrols in several troops became elitist. Well, how elitest is it for the Adult Patrol, the most experienced people on a campout, to stay by themselves, hangin' out with each other instead of helpin' younger folks, and (worst) expectin' to be served (coffee, food) and give orders to the boys?

 

I've never thought this was very good scoutin'. What say da group?

 

[evmori]

Usually we (the adults) try to filter everything to the Troop through the SPL & ASPL. But we are always available to all the Scouts & they all know this. We do keep our area in excellent condition. Not to show off but as an example to the Scouts.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[John-in-KC]

Beavah,

 

IMO adults who function as a patrol should function AS A PATROL ... this means doing their own grub, thank you.

 

Adults should also be available to coach and assist, but the youth should be learning more by doing than by being told what to do...

[Lisabob]

I think there's a fine line. My son's troop does set up two separate camps - one for adults and one for the boys, with a little distance in between, as described in some other posts here.

 

One concern I (and other newer parents) had with my son's troop last year was that there was too much distance and the boys were not developing those relationships. A sure sign of difficulty here was that my son couldn't name more than about 2 of the adults in the troop leadership, even though the same 10-15 adults attended pretty much every campout. After 4 months my son had no idea (couldn't even point out) who his patrol advisor was. Given that the troop uses New Scout Patrols, this basically meant that the new boys were left to figure things out on their own and that didn't work very well.

 

This year I think we've done a better job of finding that line. The adults still have their own site and try to act as a "model patrol," though this is hampered by the fact that there are usually more adults present than a typical patrol would have.

 

But, the patrol advisors have been working more closely with the boys, particularly at the younger end. Adult leaders have been more openly available for help, teaching, and as sounding boards. (It isn't that they weren't before, but that in an attempt to follow the "boy led" philosophy they were just difficult to pin down.) We still try to direct the boys to their PLs, troop guides, and SPL/ASPL when appropriate but there is a more hands-on feel these days.

 

Also I think this evolves as a troop changes. At the time my son joined last year, the troop was made up almost exclusively of older boys (13-14 and up, with a solid group of 17 year olds) and suddenly they had a whole bunch of younger boys cross over. Neither the adults nor the youth leadership were used to dealing with a bunch of 10 and 11 year olds who are more needy, less mature, and less experienced in most cases. We had a lot of boys drop out as a result of this dynamic.

 

This year, we are probably 2/3 younger boys and 1/3 older boys and we've had to change our approach a bit in order to work better at meeting the needs of those younger boys.

 

Lisa'bob

[Beavah]

IMO adults who function as a patrol should function AS A PATROL ... this means doing their own grub, thank you.

 

It's important to remember that there's no such thing as an adult patrol anywhere in da BSA literature or program. Quite the opposite, eh? Adults are supposed to be present to and interact with kids... taking interest in them, encouraging them, teaching and learning from them, being an example.

 

What better place to develop relationships then when breaking bread together?

 

Yah, yah, troops with a lot of parent participants often have to be practical and form an adult area just to keep da parents out of the kids hair all the time. But that's a management technique, not a scouting method. And it should not replace or weaken Adult Relationships. Youth should learn by doing under the guidance of a kind mentor.

 

Usually we (the adults) try to filter everything to the Troop through the SPL & ASPL.

 

Why? That may be the case for leadership stuff, but not for everything. Sittin' with a patrol drinkin' cocoa and talkin' about skunks; sharing kitchen chores like cleaning a dirty pot (under the PL's direction), helpin' the patrol leader show how to set up a tent.

 

Washing their feet, Ed. Washing their feet. Those who would be examples of leadership must be the servants of all. Bein' available isn't Adult Relationships. Bein' present is.

 

 

[CA_Scouter]

Beav,

 

There is no such thing as a Class A or a Class B uniform either in da literature or da program, but that doesn't mean they don't exist, do it?

 

IMHO, having the adults set an example by forming a patrol, having duty rosters, and running via the patrol method sets a good example to the scouts from which they can learn.

 

That being said, we interact frequently with our scout patrols, assisting, instructing when needed, etc. In fact, we have a responsbility to oversee and monitor behavior, lest it turn into a 'Lord of the Flies' campout, which you can get with a lot of younger inexperienced scouts like our troop.

 

I'm thinking your example is, like some other debates in these forums, the 1/10th of 1 percent of the situation. Yes, it occurs, but its not very frequent... but that's just my opinion based on what I've experience in my troop/council... could be different for other places...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

Washing their feet, Ed. Washing their feet. Those who would be examples of leadership must be the servants of all. Bein' available isn't Adult Relationships. Bein' present is.

 

Think you missed my point or you skipped But we are always available to all the Scouts & they all know this.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[Beavah]

Didn't miss it, Ed. My point was that being available (come get me if you need me) isn't the same as being "present" as in building ongoing relationships. It's the difference between the police (available by calling 911) and a friend.

 

CA, I don't think my example is .1% at all, but if it is in your area, great. Yah, yeh talk about how having a neat-and-cool "adult patrol" is a great example, but I don't buy it. At best, it's a neutral example, because the kids don't see it in action ... the interactions, the shared work, etc. At worst, It's a bad example, because the kids see that the coolest people stay in their cool clique in their high-class "neighborhood" with the best food (and often gear), while the inexperienced and poor suffer with their burned pancakes.

 

The example the kids need is that the cool adult who knows more works side by side with them, not sits off with his buddies. They need to see the example of an adult being assigned pot-cleaning duty by the (youth) PL, and agreeing cheerfully, etc. Adult relationships should be us livin' in their neighborhood, eh? At least metaphorically. Well, IMO...

 

But the point is that Patrol Method is only one method, and is balanced by others. We celebrate this notion of the "separate adults," but that ain't scoutin'.

 

How do you work as hard on the adult relationships method as the adult patrol method?

 

 

[dan]

When I think of Adult association, I think of Patrol Leader Conference, JLT, BOR, SM Conference, and Merit Badges.

When I see adults teaching a scout a skill I assume that the troop is not boy lead. The adults have not trained the youth leaders to lead, it seems most of the time this is because the adults do not trust the youth, or think they can do a better job with the teaching, most likely they adult can do a better job, but that is not the point is it?

It seems to me that no matter how young a troop is (over 6 months at least) they should have troop instructors that teach scout skills. Is it not our job to train the ASPL and SPL to train the troop instructors to be able to teach the scout skills?

 

[evmori]

beavah,

Available & present are the same to me. Ya can't be available if ya ain't present!

 

dan,

A Troop can be boy run if an adult is teaching skills. They could be teaching the skills to the youth leadership so the youth leadership can teach it to the Troop.

 

There are no absolutes in life other than death.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[CA_Scouter]

...and taxes...

 

[Eagledad]

Of course we can go back and forth on just how close is not close enough, but I don't think distance is as much a factor as it is adult reactions to boy behavior. My observations are that boys will not lead as men until they are convinced the adults will not step in and take over. That kind of culture takes years to develop in a troop. I like to tell adults to practice watching from the shadows. Get close enough to observe the behavior without interrupting the behavior. The problems with many of adults getting close is some adults dont want to see the bad behavior that needs changing, or they want credit for the good behavior.

 

Barry

 

[dan]

Ed

I agree with you, but in the scenario you presented, I see the ASPL, ASM, and Troop Instructors or Guide working together getting ready for a upcoming meeting or outing. This would be done away from the troop meeting, so very few people should see it happening.

But I would ask the SPL how a Instructor of Guide got the position without knowing basic scout skills.

I see it as a brush up on the skills and honing his presentation skills. Not teaching them the scout skills.

 

 

[EagleInKY]

I agree with Ed on this. Sometimes you need to teach a new skill to the boys. For example, when we introduced GPS to them, an adult first taught the skill to the older boys. Once they've got it, they can then instruct the younger ones. But someone has to teach it to them first.

[John-in-KC]

Funny,

 

Adult patrols are the delivery vehicle of both New Leader Essentials Scoutmaster Outdoor Fundamentals and Wood Badge.

 

In the military, we say we operate AS WE HAVE TRAINED. I find that comment a fairly true instructional model in adult learning: You use the practical model you were trained in...

 

Food for thought, especially for those who are in the NLE training business...