I am considering pulling by boy out of scouts

[campcrafter]

EDDIE,

Sorry Friend - I Think You Are Wrong!

 

If I do not insure that there is a return on the time and money I invest in my child's activities then neither he/she (fun, education, friendships, experience, adventure, whatever) nor I (a well adjusted, educated, well rounded young man/woman) get what they should from the acivity. Further it is poor parenting not to do this. IMNSHO

 

Also my child may have some interests that differ from mine and I surely would not deny my child the chance to explore those interests and I still can expect a good ROI.

 

Maybe our problem here is what each of us considers to be the investment and what kind of return is expected.

 

pax,

ron

[Vicki]

You beat me to it, Ron. I have evaluated the value of the scout program for my sons and determined that my oldest will stay in until the cows come home (otherwise he would sit on the couch), but if my youngest says he wants to quit at some point, why, we'll have a conversation and I'll probably let him. As much as it will pain me to do so. But if I evaluated the value and decided it was wanting, why then my boys would have to tell me why they wanted to continue, no matter what the program was. That's why I'm called the parent and they're called children.

 

Vicki

[SemperParatus]

Investment

A couple of hundred bucks and hours a year.

Less than a month of smokes or gasoline

Less than the time spent watching TV

Less than the time most people spend commuting

 

Return

Unlimited opportunities for fellowship

Unlimited opportunities for exploration

Unlimited opportunities for service

Unlimited opportunities for personal development

Unlimited opportunities for leadership/followship

Unlimited opportunities for learning

Unlimited opportunities for self discovery

Unlimited opportunities for great memories

 

I think the return is there, if you are open to looking for it.

 

[Lisabob]

It's Me,

 

Having seen it work tremendously well elsewhere, I do believe that the webelos program can be an excellent, exciting, fun, worthwhile program from which that the boys (and even their parents) can benefit.

 

The problem may very well be that the webelos program **in your area** is not being delivered effectively. If that's the case I certainly understand why you feel as you do. Few of us would want to advocate maintaining the status quo if it's lousy to begin with. Of course, we have to be careful to judge this through our children's eyes (at least to an extent) and not our own. Sometimes that's hard because what seems dull to us is actually very exciting for the child. If it's still fresh to the kids and they're enjoying it, then there's value to biting one's tongue as the parent and letting them go on enjoying it.

 

But...if it really isn't that great a program AND your son isn't getting what he wants from it either (though he may be unable to quite articulate this notion)...

 

then if that's the case there are basically 3 options:

 

1) quit scouts, which is what you've proposed

2) find another pack that does a better job with their webelos program

3) become more involved as a leader yourself, so that you can help make the program every bit as good as it can be.

 

I think what people here would say is that #1 ins't optimal, although in the end that's ultimately your decision as a parent.

 

#3 is a lot of work and while it is also immensely rewarding (I am speaking from personal experience), not everyone can do this at every stage in their life. Also, not everyone has the temperment to work with other people's kids.

 

But, keep in mind that all packs are entirely volunteer-driven, and if you aren't willing to step up to the plate then you probably shouldn't be criticizing those who have at least tried. (yes, I know you've been involved with your son's den from previous posts - I'm not clear on whether you're a den leader or not?)

 

What about #2? Is that an option where you live?

 

Last thought - You mention that you weren't a scout as a kid and so have no clear knowledge of how the boy scout program differs from the cub program. As a woman, I understand because of course I wasn't a boy scout either as a child!

 

So here's something to consider. Maybe contact a couple of troops in your area and ask to come visit a couple of times. Let them know you have a boy in webelos and you - and he - are trying to figure out whether what lies ahead is of interest. They should be more than happy to invite you both along on some of their activities so you can gather information and make a more informed choice about what boy scouting's all about. (If they're unwilling to consider this, look for another troop - I know around here, we'd be happy to have a webelos scout and his parent join us for many of our activities, as long as they will be age-appropriate for the boy.)

 

Lisa'bob

[campcrafter]

Lisa,

Not to be answerign for ITS ME - but if you read many of his other posts he has been a very active leader and is Wood Badge trained.

 

I believe that while the WEBELOS program can be good - it takes extra hard work to make it exciting and for the most part the empahsis is spending 18 months fulfilling requiremnts to ensure that the boys get AOL. To this all the other parts of the prgram take a back seat. Especially if you are leading a Den alone as many are.

 

I agree with IM that many parts of the prgram requirements become redundant at least thru Tenderfoot. How many times do you have to do a flag ceremony, or show how to wash and put a band-aid on a minor cut? I know repetition ensures learning but does it have to be a requirement for every stinking rank? I can see where people get bored.

 

I do disagree with IM that leadership development takes 3-4 years to occur. True maybe in some larger troops a boy may not get elected to PL til then,(some boys may never get to be PL) but there are many ways to develop leadership in the program.

 

 

pax,

ron

[evmori]

EDDIE,

Sorry Friend - I Think You Are Wrong!

 

If I do not insure that there is a return on the time and money I invest in my child's activities then neither he/she (fun, education, friendships, experience, adventure, whatever) nor I (a well adjusted, educated, well rounded young man/woman) get what they should from the acivity. Further it is poor parenting not to do this. IMNSHO

 

My son played soccer, baseball, football, bowling and tried karate. What return did he get from all these? He had fun. Parenting and expecting a ROI is not parenting for the kids, it is parenting for yourself. And that's not parenting. I'm not sure what it is but it isn't parenting.

 

Also my child may have some interests that differ from mine and I surely would not deny my child the chance to explore those interests and I still can expect a good ROI.

 

My kids have interests that differ from mine, too. The only ROI that is necessary is they learned something & had fun.

 

Maybe our problem here is what each of us considers to be the investment and what kind of return is expected.

 

Nah that's not the problem. The problem is I don't expect any return. Everything - good or bad - is a learning experience.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SR540Beaver]

In my experience, Webelos II's can often be boring. I like to think we ran a good program in our Pack. When my son was an excited Webelos I, the Webelos II's would show up at Pack meetings, mill about, stare at the walls, fidget, talk among themselves, etc. while the rest of the kids were having a blast. They were at a stage where they were ready to move on. They had spent the last year doing requirements and working to earn their AOL. Depending on how you try to spread out the second year, it can become tedious to the boys. We were a camping Pack. We took full advantage of every district or council Cub camping opportunity. We also threw in some Webelos Den campouts. We could pretty well tell which boys would advance to Boy Scouts and which ones would not by who went camping. In fact, that was exactly our dividing line on who moved on and who dropped out. But they were all growing bored with it by the end of the 18 months, even though it was the same program they had experienced since Tigers. Stick it out with an eye towards Boy Scouts. Your Webelos leaders should be coordinating with Troops in the area to attend meetings and outings so you can shop around. Ask around about the different troop's reputations. Boy Scouts IS NOT Webelos. Let your son at least try it on for size. You might be pleasantly surprised. We had one of our new boys and his dad attend their first campout this past weekend. The boy's mom is the one in the family who likes camping. The dad said he is a city boy and not that interested. All it took was one campout to see the boys and adult leaders in action and he is signing up to be a uniformed leader.

[MaScout]

First -- my apologies for the length of this reply. I have been thinking for several days now, and rather than becoming more concise, I have become more verbose.

 

Ultimately this is a personal family decision, which should only be made after long (impartial) family discussions of the pros & cons, and what everyone wants/is looking for.

 

What does your son want to do? Why?

 

What do you want to do? Why?

 

Have you prayed about it? How do you feel led?

 

Personally, I believe in the Boy Scout program. I also believe in the Cub Scout program. I also believe there are good fits & not-so-good fits between a program & a boy. It sounds like your sons fit with the Webelos program he was in wasnt so good. My sons experiences in Webelos were very good. Their/our experiences in Boy Scouts have been very good. Sure there are bad days. But thats life. There are also some AWESOME days, and they outweigh & outnumber the bad. Our family is very much involved in the outdoors, too. However, the experience they (the boys) get through Scouting is vastly different than the family outdoor experience.

 

Webelos sure it can be weak. Especially if its a not-so-good fit for you & your son. But it can be way cool. Our boys do Science experiments, go on hikes, take numerous field trips, practice CPR on dummies, visit the voting locations, learn to cook, go swimming, pick up trash, oh the list goes on & on. New & unusual opportunities are presented & its up to the Scout to decide what to participate in.

 

Boy Scouts is quite different. The first couple years the boys are on a sharp learning curve. They need to learn how to do soooo many things! The new Scouts in our troop are still trying to get over the idea that adults will set up their tents & prepare meals for them. Of course, we dont dump them into this cold turkey, but there is so much to learn they cant possibly do it all in just a couple years. They learn new skills, new responsibilities, and learn leadership from the older boys. Sometimes it just doesnt work, and the boy drops out. Hopefully, by the time they are in 7th grade or so, they have matured enough to begin taking on more of a leadership role, leading into senior leadership when they get even older.

 

Scouting can open many doors and has an unbelievable set of opportunities for growth, like Youth Leader Training, National Youth Leader Training, Jamboree, Philmont Treks, Boundary Waters, Florida Sea Base, and SO much more! But a young man needs to WANT to pursue those things. He needs to have an interest in developing these areas of his life. If he wants to and you dont, it is a very viable option to allow him to continue while you step back. This might even give him another opportunity for growth.

 

Most of us here are avid Scouters, or we wouldnt spend so much of our time on these forums (among other things) trying to improve our own units, and trying to help others. We believe in the program. We believe in the mission, ideals, & methods of Scouting. Why? Weve seen them work. So if you ask this group of people for their input, they are generally going to be pro-Scouting. Thats who we are. But ultimately, we cannot answer for you, your son, or your situation.

 

Best wishes! Ma Scout

[campcrafter]

My son played soccer, baseball, football, bowling and tried karate. What return did he get from all these? He had fun.

Then the return on your invest of time and money was good. Had he not had fun or the baseball league been disorganized, the kids not learn much about baseball and not had fun - you would have been upset and thought your time and money wasted - bad ROI.

The only ROI that is necessary is they learned something & had fun. 

Nah that's not the problem. The problem is I don't expect any return.

Ed, you contradict yourself you say the only ROI (i.e. return) that is necessary is they learned something and had fun.- then state you don't expect any return. Which is it? Obviously you DO expect a return.

Enjoying the friendly debate

CC

 

[Vicki]

We seem to be really hung up on "investment" and "ROI" - from the American Heritage Dictionary, definition 4 - "investment - a commitment, as of time or support." So Its Me is questioning the value of his and his son's "commitment of their time and support" to the scouting program. OK, no problem. He waved a couple of red flags in front of this particular group of folks and we responded as one would have expected:

[Beavah]

OK, all this stuff about investments and stock options and educational currency trading futures is gettin' a bit over the top, eh?

 

For an elementary school boy, your "best investment" is probably no investment at all... it's free play. Boys who get to run around, climb trees, ride their bikes around the neighborhood, hang with friends, etc. learn all kinds of life lessons. They get comfortable and confident being self-directed without being "bored." They deal with issues of leadership and followership and comfort and discomfort without access to mommy.

 

As boys grow, that self-directed free play will naturally "morph" in middle school and high school to self-directed activity choices. Boys will start to fill up their calendar with fun things that require more time and practice, not because "organized" is good for them, but because they need more challenge and deeper engagement for their free play. Down the road, this deeper engagement and confidence will become a career, lifelong interests/hobbies, a spouse and family of his own.

 

All without any "active investment management" by parents. Only regular deposits of love and encouragement, compounded daily.

 

Boy Scouting fits a boy's growth far better than most other activities because it meets the need for more challenge and deeper engagement without taking away the other aspects of free play - self direction, natural leadership and followership, success and discomfort without access to mommy, and good old fashioned dirt. Other activities, though, also work well and even better for different boys, provided they are allowed to make their own decisions about what they choose to play with .... because their parents support play and growth and fun and learning, not "organization" and "advancement."

 

If ya want to be the best parent you can be, stop investin'. Let your son play.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[campcrafter]

Hey Beav,

You are wise.

All without any "active investment management" by parents. Only regular deposits of love and encouragement, compounded daily.

That's awesome!

I concede.

Best to All,

CC

[evmori]

campcrafter,

 

I only used the phrase "The only ROI that is necessary" was for your benefit.

 

I've been an adult Scouter for 18+ years. I have never expected anything in return. I have been a parent for 20+ years and have never expected anything in return. If I do get anything in return from either I consider it a blessing!

 

"Expecting a ROI as a parent is parenting for the parent not the child"

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[t158sm]

Beavah:

My sentiments exactly.

Whatever happened to just letting them be kids? I don't believe parents should micro-manage their children's lives.

[BrentAllen]

IM,

Sorry to be blunt, but if your program is not exciting - look in the mirror. As the DL, you have the power to make the program interesting and exciting, or boring.

I'm convinced Webelos II can be the toughest year in Scouting, but that doesn't mean it has to be. Plan an exciting program and execute! Get a copy of the BSA Field Manual and go to town! Sell adventure to the boys and they will buy all you can provide.

 

So a couple of your Scouts don't know how to camp, and you feel like you are babysitting. What a great opportunity to teach those boys, with all the outdoor experience you have! If their dads don't have the time - or expertise - to teach them how to take care of themselves in the outdoors, they are lucky to have you! Don't let them down!