I am considering pulling by boy out of scouts

[Its Me]

He is just finishing Webelos I. We alraedy completed 7 of the Pin requirements needed for arrow of light. My wife and three kids are advid outdoor enthusist having backapcked through Yellowstone, parts of the Appalachian trail, the Boundary waters.... I don't need the scouts to get us outdoors. If I stay for his leadership development it will be three more years of before he is elidgeable.

 

I am sure he would like to stay but he would be in activities 40 hours a week if he could. That's not possible with two siblings and active parents. He is already in a demanding private school, is on the chess club, plays organized youth soccer and swims after school.

 

Why stay when there appears to be so little return on the investment?

 

 

 

 

 

[EagleBeaver]

From looking at your posts from the past 4 months, this one seems to be out of the blue.

 

But, leadership development doesn't start when a scout turns 14 or after he's been in Boy Scouts for 3 years or at any magic point in time. As a Webelos den leader, I expec you are already developing their leadership in age-appropriate den activities. Having them lead flag ceremonies, be the denner, maybe choose where to go for a hike. Then, when they cross over to Boy Scouts, their leadership development continues if the troop they join uses New Scout Patrols(NSP).

Our troop has a Troop Guide lead the NSP, but more as a teacher and guide. Each month a new scout is elected as Patrol Leader so he can attend a PLC and lead the patrol with the Troop Guide.

 

No one needs Scouting to get a boy into the outdoors - anyone can rent a canoe or go for a walk. Scouting aims for character development, citizenship, and physical fitness through an exciting outdoor program. There aren't many other organizations that attempt to deliver that much. Chess, soccer, and swimming are all great activities, but I expect there's only 1 or 2 team captains and those are not really developing much leadership under the control of the coach.

 

The thought of "little return on the investment" just doesn't fit with my family's experience in Scouting. It's been a great return every year.

 

Good Luck with your decision.

 

 

 

[LongHaul]

Its Me,

Scouting is the only organization for Cub/Webelos and 11 to 14 year old Boy Scouts, where the boy gets a chance to be indian and chief. He gets to help accomplish a goal and lead others in the accomplishment of a goal. He will have the great character builder of the chance to make someone elses vision a reality using yet again someone elses hands. By this I mean when he is in the learedship position for executing a plan he did not create. There are many team oriented activities but few where the team actually runs the program. I'd say stay but then I've been doing this since 1957.

LongHaul

[Eamonn]

So, are we talking about what is best for you or your son?

Eamonn

[scoutldr]

How about staying for the fun and making lifelong friends? More than 35 years later, I still keep in touch with some of my Scout buddies...and it's comforting to know that I can go anywhere in the world and flash the scout sign and have a friend and brother Scout respond.

[Lisabob]

Its Me,

 

I am wondering whether you might be suffering from cub scout burn out?

 

I find that boy scouts is really different from cubs. Yes, there's the outdoor aspect which, as you point out, you can duplicate on your own. But there are also 120+ merit badges to explore; close friendships to develop; leadership opportunities that don't start at age 14; concepts like service to one's community; the idea that one is truly a part of a community (which, in this bedroom community of condos and apartment complexes and freeways with hardly any sidewalks, is a very special thing).

 

In the last 18 months since my son joined his troop, I've been surprised at how he and his former den-mates have matured and grown more confident. I've loved that he got to explore his pet interests in science with professionals who took the time to counsel him through the MB program (where else could he really get that?). It has been wonderful to see him watch and learn from older boys whom he now respects and counts as friends. And since March when we had a new group of boys cross over, it has been most interesting to see him begin to act as teacher, mentor, and role model to those boys as well, even though he is only a year older.

 

You'll have to make your own decisions about whether or not to stay involved but I'll tell you, it always makes me a little sad to see a boy who is excited about something be told he can't do it anymore because his parents are tired, even though there have been times where I too have felt that way. If it is transportation that's an issue, team with other parents in the group. If you don't have the time to devote to lots of leadership activities, then step back a bit if you need to. But please do give it some more thought before pulling him out if he is really enjoying it.

 

Lisa'bob

 

 

[hops_scout]

Sounds like you want out and may force your wants onto your son. What ever happen to allowing him to have some input?

 

 

There are many reasons to join the troop. Somebody mentioned friends. I would consider several people from this site a friend of mine. I have met a few other people because they knew somebody from this site. All due to the interest in Scouts.

 

I don't know of many chess tournaments or soccer tournaments where there are 40,000+ in the area at once for 10 days there to have fun. Or 75,000 in the arena at once from all over the world!

 

You can backpack, but what about climbing, COPE, confidence courses? Do you have the equipment, training, and land to do these activities?

 

 

Leadership--Chess club and that soccer team will not give your son the leadership opportunities Scouting does. The leadership skills learned in Scouting do not only apply to Scouting either. Those skills transfer into other activities and later on in life I think they will apply as well.

 

I am who I am because of Scouting. I dont have many pictures of athletes on my walls in my room. Instead, I have pictures from Jambo, I have patriotic pictures, and I have pictures from West Point. All of those were influenced by Scouting. I highly doubt I would be in the position of the desire to serve this great nation without the skills and other things I have learned through Scouting.

 

I think you are making a horrible decision. I can understand a boy deciding he wants to give up Scouting. As much as that hurts me to say, some boys just don't like it. The parents making the boy quit just makes me mad because they don't want to make it work.

 

IT CAN WORK EVEN WITH A BUSY SCHEDULE!!!

[Its Me]

 

mn_scout wrote

"From looking at your posts from the past 4 months, this one seems to be out of the blue."

 

Go back far enough and you will see two of my rants on the Webelos program.

 

 

Eamonn wrote:

"So, are we talking about what is best for you or your son?"

 

Fair question. For me the answer is, get out. I took the den on a campout three weeks ago. A one nighter with just me, another adult leader, his wife and the boys. We had two Webelos without parents, two with and one bear cub. It had a big time feel of baby sitting. I could have used the time for some one on one with my boy.

 

Answering for what is best for my boy. hhhmmmm! That's a little tougher. He enjoys time with his dad but I am sure he has a good time with his buddies.

 

I am just looking at the Webelos II and the first two years of scouts and am wondering what the return on investment will be? Outdoors? He has that! Leadership? Not for a few more years! Friends? Scouts isn't the only place to make friends! Citizenship? His school is pretty darn good at this one.

 

Three meetings a month plus one weekend a month for the next 6 years or so is a big investment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cubbingcarol]

I take it that you are the den leader. Yes/no? If you are and feeling the way you do, why don't you step down and just be the parent of a scout. The pressure of being a leader and planning and carrying out a program may be getting to YOU. Perhaps if you didn't have this added stress it might relieve the burden on you, and your son could continue with something he enjoys and learns from.

 

Just my $0.02 worth,

Carol

[Lisabob]

It's Me, I had that same feeling sometimes as a Webelos DL. I had a couple of campouts that went almost exactly as you described. It irritated me no end and contributed to my own desire to step back, waaayyyy back, when my son finally crossed over. I really needed a break! (Actually I stayed on an extra few months to help out w/ the W I den but that was it.)

 

Have you done any joint activities with the troop(s) in your area? How about doing some webelos/troop camp outs? You might be surprised. Camping w/ a troop is a very different dynamic than camping with cubs. Please don't base your decision about boy scouts on your camping experience with the pack.

 

Also I am not sure where the idea came from that the first couple of years of boy scouts do not include leadership? Or that these first couple of years are basically glorified webelos scouting, which I (perhaps mistakenly?) picked up from your last post. They are not. At least, they should not be if the troop you join is running a good program. In my son's troop, first and second year scouts have served as patrol leaders and asst. patrol leaders, scribe, troop historian and librarian, and color guard, among other leadership positions, in the last 18 months. They have also begun teaching the new first year boys basic camping and woods skills, first aid, and other scouting lore, among other things. This is also leadership development.

 

Yes, you can make good friends in lots of places. I don't want to knock the other activities your son is involved in. My son did chess club and soccer for a while too and enjoyed each, met new friends, and even learned new things. On the other hand, there's a different kind of friendship that develops from spending weekends together, cooking, eating, and sleeping together, trying new challenges and (eventually) succeeding together, with a bunch of other boys of varying ages, backgrounds, and abilities.

 

But you know it sounds to me like the main problem is that you are burned out on being a den leader. The other comments you make, while I'm sure they're true, are nearly always true for most of us. We're all too busy. We all want to spend more time doing something or other. That's true whether or not it is scouts, or soccer, or chess club, or some other activity that we're spending time attending, driving to and from, etc.. But in my experience, these issues tend only to come to the forefront when people are looking for a reason to get out that they feel others will accept.

 

If you really are too pressed for time then a) pull back on being a den leader and b) start looking for people you can share responsibilities, car pool duties, and other tasks with. If your son is enjoying scouts, then I would hope you'd try these kinds of "fixes" before simply telling him he can't be a scout anymore because it doesn't work for you.

 

I hope that doesn't come across as harsh; that's not how I mean it, anyway. As our friend John-in-KC mentions, "feedback is a gift" and I hope you'll take all of our feedback here in that spirit.

 

Lisa'bob

[nldscout]

It appears to me that you have already made up your mind, your just looking for us to justify it. If you look at it thru your eyes

"Why stay when there appears to be so little return on the investment? "

 

If you don't want it then let your son participate until he doesn't want to, you don't always have to go with him.

[oldsm]

OK, we all get tired from trying to do too much. In my case:

 

Son #1: Started with Tigers, is now 17 1/2 and working on Eagle. Plays varsity tennis, hangs with friends, gets involved in some extra-curricular school activities from time to time, goofs off, and is a darned good Scout. Has served as Patrol Leader (more than once, beginning at age 11 right after crossover) and is presently Historian. Very knowledgeable and responsible (although a little less time on computer games would be fine with me). Active in OA, also works summers at Council camp. Attended 2001 Jambo; 2005 Jambo as staff. Active in church, too.

 

Son #2: Started with Tigers, is now almost 15 and working on Eagle (closer than his older brother). Has evening class at HS once a week (can't be scheduled during the day), drama club, community theatre, cycles a lot, very active in OA, also works at Council camp. Has served as PL, SPL (two years), presently Scribe. Attended Junior Leader Trainng Camp. Attended 2005 Jambo. Is BSA Lifeguard and par tof a new District Medical Corps. Active in church.

 

Me: Started Cubs with son #1, became Den Leader right after Tigers, then ADDED Cubmaster 2 years later. We had a non-existent Committee (on paper only!), so I was de facto CC as well. Because Assistant SM when son #1 crossed into Troop (try wearing 3 hats (DL, CM, SA) - THAT's too much. Became SM about 3 years ago in a troop that is very active, supports Council/District events, has solid growth and a stellar reputation, have served on District training events, chaired a District leadership conference (for adults). Oh, I also have a full-time job with a 1-hour commute, and a 2nd job as a church organist and choir director (try balancing that against weekend outings).

 

My wife: a great supporter of all of the above.

 

Burnout can happen. I've been close a few times. But then I look at what I'm doing, and it all comes back into perspective. I can never figure out what to give up or scale back (although I'm no longer in Cubs).

 

My "real" job pays the bills, as does the church work.

 

The church work I love - it's part of who I am.

 

Scouting probably provides the most satisfaction of all: watching boys grow and mature, learning life skills, watching out for and encouraging each other, teaching younger scouts - even teaching cold-weather camping skills to adults. The friendships are priceless. I probably will be one of those people who stays active in scouting long after my own boys have moved on. The "pay" might not be in dollars, but there's an immeasurable value that I will always treasure.

 

I could be watching a movie, or taking it easy tonight, but instead I'm exploring these forums to get ideas about how to help improve our local troop program. I love this one-hour-a-week.

 

A previous post alluded to the differences between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. In my experience, its 180 degrees different! I believe that Den Leaders have one of the toughest jobs in all of Scouting. You have to plan all of the meetings, then implement them (often with little help or support from parents), while the kids go along for the ride. As soon as they move into Boy Scouts, the troop (not you) should be teaching them how to plan their own programs, handle their own advancements, and carry out their own camping trips. We adults just go along for the ride! (OK, that's a little simplified, but you get the idea.)

 

I hope you'll find a way to recharge yourself. If your son wants to stay active in scouting, he'll appreciate your support and encouragement, regardless of your own role. The benefits are just too good to let slip away. Good luck.

[anarchist]

 

Wow, such a case of "too much work, not fun, I wanna go home!" Do I hear violins in the background???

 

Gonna bust your chops here Its Me. Drop out its a free country, but do you have to force your son out 'cause you do not have time to wait till he grows into the "fun" stuff?

 

If you would have followed the rules and had a parent for each webelos on your campout maybe you would have felt better (but I doubt it)...

 

Investment, Investment? Since when are our kids an investment? Good god, enough already with the "chest beating-search for meaning"...if you want someone else to do the work say so...and quit. Let someone else become the Baby Sitters of America representative. If your negative feelings are bleeding out its probably getting through to your son anyway...step back let him breathe too.

 

Your attitude is more common than you think. Lots of Dads find little enjoyment in their younger childrens development process...its to boring. They chomp at the bit for the kids to grow up enough to be "fun" and buster I'll tell you; when those years arrive - they fly by so damn fast it'll make your hair gray (or fall out)and then they are gone. I would say try to Learn to love every day of your sons development...but it would probably be a waste of breath.

 

No sympathy here...if its not for you...fly away...hopefully you will not "poison the well" for your son. Maybe the next Webelos II leader will let the boys start operating like a patrol and rotate the patrol leadership positions so your son and others can work on leadership...cause it sounds like you have missed the point...(darn I sound brutal tonight..oh well you sound like you need it)...

 

If it scouting works for your boy, he can make life long friends, learn about character building and pick up a few skills to boot. I just spent a week with five guys I scouted and bummed around with in the sixties...we fished some, golfed some(at least they golfed - I don't agree with shooting poor little golfs), partied some and cooked alot...imagine- six old men in a waterfront beach/golf/fishing resort town -who only ate one meal in a restaurant in a whole week 'cause we all learned to love cooking in the scouts.

 

Do what is best for your son...if that is dropping out, so be it...but somehow I'll bet that making him drop out will not be what's best... for either of you.

 

good luck (and I mean that)

Anarchist

 

 

 

 

[sst3rd]

Its Me,

 

You're absolutely right. No return on your investment. And let's face it, your investment is all that it's about. Nothing in the BSA that you and your family can't do otherwise. Get out of the program now!!!!

 

sst3rd

[MarkS]

Its Me,

 

You're right, there's not enough time in the day for our boys to do every activity that's available to them. I suggest setting up a time and financial budget for extra curricular activities and letting your boy pick what he wants to do within that budget. After all extra curricular activities are just that... extra, not required. They're supposed to be things he wants to do. Don't choose for him, but reserve the right to veto choices you find inappropriate for him.

 

Mark