Paintball

[packsaddle]

I'll give it a try. The line is fuzzy. At one extreme, if no tour permit is filed, if no uniform is worn, and if there is no association with BSA whatsoever, then that should satisfy the attorneys that BSA is free of liability for the outing and that the CO, the leadership, and the families assume all of the liability.

At the other extreme, any 'workaround' or 'loophole' that is employed to rationalize the circumvention of the regulations is a violation of scout spirit. It may also consitute a self-deception by the troop.

To me, a more honest approach would be to openly state that they disagree with the regulation and that they intend to violate it whenever they see fit. That at least is clear and all parties are then free to respond accordingly.

[GernBlansten]

Ah, the BB gun wars of my youth. We'd wear thick Levi jackets to dampen the pain and strict safety regulations like no more than 10 pumps per shot. Near the 4th of July, we would stockpile exploding bottle rockets. In a pipe, they could be used like a bazooka. A well placed roman candle was an effective perimeter defense.

 

No 22s though. That's just crazy!

[packsaddle]

We wore Levi pants as well and only fired shorts, single shot only. A surrogate target was often employed, dragging a large can on a string. No one was ever hit (except with the BBs which stung like heck especially if someone was careless and hit you in the neck or head). Crazy, to be sure, but somehow no one was killed. Today, with the availability of firepower that we have, I can't imagine what would have happened. I guess paintball is the answer.

 

We didn't mess with bottle rockets but Roman candles were good. We also used things called 'aerial bombs' which were essentially small mortars with an explosive much more powerful than M80s. One 4th of July some really nasty people attacked some police officers using these things and seriously injured some of them. Shortly thereafter, those fireworks (along with real cherry bombs, TNTs, and M80s) were banned. So now we only have mamby pamby stuff that merely looks pretty.

None of this, ahem, goes very far to disprove the women.

[SR540Beaver]

Trev,

 

Actually, Dale did not keep his homosexuality private.

 

"James Dale entered scouting in 1978 at the age of eight by joining Monmouth Council's Cub Scout Pack 142. Dale became a Boy Scout in 1981 and remained a Scout until he turned 18. By all accounts, Dale was an exemplary Scout. In 1988, he achieved the rank of Eagle Scout, one of Scouting's highest honors.

 

Dale applied for adult membership in the Boy Scouts in 1989. The Boy Scouts approved his application for the position of assistant scoutmaster of Troop 73. Around the same time, Dale left home to attend Rutgers University. After arriving at Rutgers, Dale first acknowledged to himself and others that he is gay. He quickly became involved with, and eventually became the copresident of, the Rutgers University Lesbian/Gay Alliance. In 1990, Dale attended a seminar addressing the psychological and health needs of lesbian and gay teenagers. A newspaper covering the event interviewed Dale about his advocacy of homosexual teenagers' need for gay role models. In early July 1990, the newspaper published the interview and Dale's photograph over a caption identifying him as the copresident of the Lesbian/Gay Alliance."

 

Now back to our regularly scheduled program. I think this problem has already been nailed. If you choose to plan, organize, promote, provide transportation, collect money, etc. to play paintball as either a troop or patrol, you are involved in a scouting related event. G2SS says you can not participate. Friends calling friends to go play paintball and having their parents drive them there is no different than being driven to school, church, the movies, the local swimming pool, etc. It has nothing to do with scouting.

 

Climbing is a BSA sanctioned activity. We have 4 climbing trained adults in our troop. Our troop owns their own climbing equipment. We plan campouts where climbing is the focus. We also have 60 active scouts in our troop. When some of us want to go to the climbing gym, we don't announce it in the troop meeting and invite everyone. The gym wouldn't be able to accomodate everyone very easily and boys would be lucky to get a single climb in. There are those of us who e-mail each other occasionally and ask if they want to get together and climb. Are we from the troop? Yes. Is it a scouting event? No. Do our sons invite non-scouting friends to go with them? Yes. Even though it would be fine for us to do this as a troop, the way it is handled makes it a non-troop event. Paintball would need to be handled in this way if friends in the troop want to do it. All planning needs to be outside the troop framework or meeting place.

 

[Beavah]

When is it a Boy Scout outing versus a group of friends getting together to go shoot each other?

When the PLC plans it?

 

Nope. Has to be approved by the committee as an official event and put on the calendar. Most PLC members are friends. They plan to do all kinds of things together that aren't scout activities, but that do involve only scouts.

 

When it is announced at a meeting?

 

Nope. Lots of troops announce all kinds of community events at meetings. "Here's an opportunity for service if anyone is interested." "Here's what's goin' on in the CO's other youth programs." "Billy is havin' a birthday party on Saturday and you're all invited." etc.

 

When a patrol sets it up during a patrol meeting?

 

Nope. Kids in patrols are friends. They set up all kinds of things at a patrol meeting. "Hey, guys, let's go mountain bikin' at the park tomorrow after school!" "You guys want to hit the video arcade after da meetin'? I'll call my dad and tell him to pick us up there." "I need help with the history test on Thursday. Any of you guys free and want to study together?"

 

Where is the line?

 

When it's approved by the committee as an official troop (as opposed to CO) event.

 

 

The ethics here are interestin', because paintball, lasertag, etc. are not safety issues. Paintball has a huge youth user community and a better safety record overall than the BSA and the other outdoor activies that we allow. And there's zero association with playin (paintball, squirtguns, lasertag, cops and robbers, etc.) with youth gun violence. So makin' it a safety issue is a flat-out lie.

 

How citizens should respond when an authority imposes restrictions on freedom on the basis of a deliberate lie is an interestin' ethical question with obvious broader implications in the larger climate of today's America. Disobedience, legal work-arounds, subterfuge, lobbying, legal challenges, negative publicity/public embarrassment of the authority, immigration to a different authority's jurisdiction, and revolution by ballot or active resistance are all responses that men of character have chosen throughout history.

 

But interestingly, most of us in America would consider it a flaw of character and an unethical choice to just go along with such an authority.(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Saltface]

On 4/20/2006 at 10:58 AM, anarchist said:

 

 

Fencing is in the same group as paintballing- not approved....

engarde!....splatt!....not fair!

I'm dredging up an old thread here.

Is there any truth to this claim about fencing being prohibited? I can't find anything about it in the G2SS.

[MattR]

3 hours ago, Saltface said:

I can't find anything about it in the G2SS.

Then it's okay.

I found a reference to a venturing fencing competition dated 2008. I also found a Master at Arms MB that used fencing for one of the requirements. That MB was one of the original 14. However, it was cancelled a year later.