Paintball

[DugNevius]

Beaver, yu have a point. If we were going as a troop, using troop transportation and equipment it could be seen as erroneous. However, if you are simply providing an alternate to the BSA to participate in activities not supported by the BSA then thats perfectly fine. We are not orginizing a troop activity. I know a few guys, troop alumni that go paintballing frequently and offering the oppurtunity to tag along to the boys in the troop.

 

10 years ago, several guys from our troop including myself began a club hockey program, meeting every saturday that a Troop event wasnt planned and playing hockey. Troop members made up that majority of the group but it also included many guys that were not. When guys joined the troop and showed interest in hockey they got the invitation. Yu can call it "solicitation" but i dont agree.

[GernBlansten]

I think if it's on the troop calendar, its a troop event. If it is just a bunch of scouts going paintballing, then it is just that. Same goes of adults. I think it would be inappropriate for the committee to hold meetings a the local pub, but if those same committee members met there for a brew after work on Friday, I see nothing wrong with that.

[anarchist]

SR540Beaver,

RE:FScouter-

On your defense-sorry but in context,as read-NO ONE mentioned-even intimated that the boys or the scouters planned or were planning a P.B. activity as a troop event. Only that the boys wanted to go and they found a solution by not making it a boy scout event...

 

Are you really saying that because we are scouters we can not contenence a group of our scouts getting together for a nonBSA sanctioned activity? I suppose next we have to tell them they can only think clean "boy scout" type thoughts when at meetings??? Please!

 

For FScouter to imply that a scouter was showing boys how to make unetheical based on what was written was simply wrong.

There was no ethical issue.

 

If the troop was "clean" (truely clean)no schedule, no BSA support...just kids wanting to do something legal that was not a BSA approved activity where is the dilemma? Where is the unethical lesson? Why did FScouter have to inject something where it was not a prior part of the thread? As a moderator he should (unlike me)know to show restraint ....before intimating DugNevis helped them make unethical decisions.

 

Story- When My oldest Joined the Troop one ofthe most popular events on the troop calendar was the PAINTBALL trip...yes the Paintball trip...I am convinced that it was one of the major reasons my son continued into Boys Scouts...'cause his older friends would talk about 'painting' someone 'up'...not being fully up on BSA regs at the time I didn't see it coming but during my training- up popped the "NO PAINTBALL" law...a few of us went back to the troop and committee and the activity was dropped from the schedule and has stayed dropped for nine years...but the boys still get together and "mark 'em up". What they did was not in any way unethical. It is a game boys really seem to like (its legal) and they wanted to continue...THey did it as guys not BOY SCOUTS...but does FScouter really believe that when we did not say "NO, NO, BAD, BAD PAINTBALL we were help them learn to make unethical decisions?

If not why did he say it? If so...good grief.

nuff said

Anarchist

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Anarchist,

 

There is no need to get your knickers in a knot. I think you are the one making a mountain out of a mole hill. Dug asked why paintball was against the rules. Someone explained why. Paraphrasing, Dug then said the way around it was to make it a non-scout event. True enough......depending on how you do it. If you truely do it "outside" the troop, it is no big deal. If you promote it within the troop and (wink, wink, nod, nod....as has been suggested by folks in other threads) say you'll just call it a non-scout event, then you are being unethical. You are creating a loophole to take your scouts on an outing that BSA says you can't. That would be unethical. Again, it all depends on how it is handled. We lead by example. Dug mentioned they would just do it as a non-scouting event without any further detail about how it would be promoted. That is what Fscouter was responding to.

[Eamonn]

I have never been Paint balling and admit that other than watching the USA Paintball Championships on the TV, I know very little about it.

I don't have an overwhelming desire to go or do much much more than I'm doing now.

We have one Scout that seems to be into it, he has all the equipment in the trunk of his car. In fact this Lad has everything in the trunk of his car, there is even a toilet seat which has a story behind it, which I don't want to know.

This ethical thing is a hard one at times.

I was moaning and groaning to our CO about our lack of money and what a bad job the Scouts are doing with fund raising.

We have the local Elks as our CO.

Their response was "You need to sell a ticket!!"

I explained that this wasn't in line with the BSA. Someone suggested the old "Friends of.." idea. I said I wasn't comfortable with this as it would seem we were looking for loop holes.

In the end the Elks said that they were having a Cash Bash and they would donate to the Ship money that they raised from the event.

If at a Quarterdeck meeting the idea of the Ship going Paint balling was brought up. I would have to squash it.

If the Scout who is into Paint Balling wants to invite his pals to go Paint Balling, that would be up to them.

I'm going to distance the Ship from this as much as I can.

If parents call me I will explain that it isn't a Sea Scout activity. I'm not going to promote it or have anything to do with it.

In my own little way I will hope that they have a good time and hope that no one gets hurt.

I do think if we go looking for loop holes we are doing the Scouts we serve a disservice.

I'm not saying anyone is looking for these. -But if they were.

Eamonn.

[packsaddle]

I agree wholeheartedly with Eamonn here. Paintball isn't merely pretending, it is firing an actual projectile at another person. I have mixed feelings regarding laser tag but I follow the rules. But in comparison, paintball is a slam dunk.

[FScouter]

This ethical thing is a hard one at times.

 

In terms of Scouting, and the Scouting mission, we all know in our hearts what is an ethical choice and what is not. If our organization, BSA, believes that paintball or laser is not an inappropriate activity, then as Scouters, we CANNOT promote or in any way encourage that activity, or to sneakily suggest loopholes. To do so, at odds with the organization to which we belong and believe in, is an unethical choice.

 

Our personal philosophies and beliefs may or may not be that of our organization. As Scouters however, in good conscience, we cannot promote any activity or action that is detrimental or contrary to the sanctions or our organization. To make choices otherwise is unethical, unethical to the aims of the organization to which we belong.

 

Choose paintball or laser, but do so totally outside of BSA. It is an unethical choice for a Scout leader to choose actions that conflict with the beliefs and practices of the Scouting organization.

[Trevorum]

"It is an unethical choice for a Scout leader to choose actions that conflict with the beliefs and practices of the Scouting organization."

 

I so totally disagree. BSA is a great organization and I love it, but it is NOT on the side of justice or right on several key social issues and I will NOT back down from my strongly held moral principles just because I am also a Scouter.

 

 

And that's all I have to say 'bout that. Unless you want to take it to the Issues and Politics forum.

[Beavah]

If our organization, BSA, believes that paintball or laser is not an inappropriate activity, then as Scouters, we CANNOT promote or in any way encourage that activity, or to sneakily suggest loopholes. To do so, at odds with the organization to which we belong and believe in, is an unethical choice.

 

Whoa, Nelly! Egads. Somebody needs to wake this boy up with a good whack upside da head with a Committee Handbook.

 

I'm a big BSA supporter and a longtime volunteer, but da BSA isn't a religion. If it happens to decide that huntin' is bad, that doesn't mean I'm goin' to Scouter Hell for promotin' the huntin' camp trip with my buddies and my son on openin' day of deer season this year.

 

A Scouter can't "promote or in any way encourage"... gimme a break. A unit committee should not approve as a scheduled BSA unit event is all. If a scouter wants to run a paintball tournament on his own time, or a CO wants to run a paintball event on their own dime, that's not anyone's business but theirs. Heck, a Scouter might own a paintball establishment (or martial arts dojo, or...)

 

Sheesh. Dumb discussions like this one just highlight how dumb this particular rule is in the first place. Fastest growin' youth outdoor adventure sport with a safety record that beats ours hands down, and we don't want any part of it. Whatever. Da kids vote with their feet, eh? At least we get to teach 'em about makin' smart decisions when adults are bein' dumb.

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

You guys know, there is at least one scout forum on the web that would never allow a paintball discussion get this far. The moderator would say Paintball is against the rules, there is no discussion about this topic and the thread is closed. Here, the discussion continues and before we start slapping people upside the head with anything, lets remember tolerance about someones beliefs and not resort to even theoretic violence. We all have our opinions and we have to be allowed to express those opinions without being told those beliefs are dumb, whacked or otherwise not right. We can disagree, but please, evenn the suggestion of comical violence lends itself the wrong message to the youth who read this board and I am sure this thread.

 

 

[Eamonn]

FScouter,

I was going to PM you, but I had second thoughts.

I like to think that my ethics are fine and dandy.

What I didn't do a very good job of was explaining the ethical dilemma, we sometimes face.

If we say it's wrong to gamble (Sell tickets) Why is it OK to accept money that was raised that way?

If we say Paintball it is an activity that 'projects' violence at living things.

Why are we field testing a hunting merit badge?

I'm OK with following the rules.

I think that following the rules is the ethical thing to do.

Still there are times when the rules, ethics and belief's don't go hand in hand.

I just had a lengthy chat with a friend of mine who claims to be pro-life, but supports the death penalty. - I'm working on that one!!

Eamonn.

[packsaddle]

And at the same time, I agree with Trevorum. Trev, correct me if I misunderstand you, but I think the difference with G2SS and the paintball thing is that it has something to do with safety for the scouts. In contrast, for some of the issues that I think Trevorum and I are thinking about, there is no safety issue whatsoever, rather it is more of a matter of personal conviction and in those cases, BSA is doing what we think is unethical, possibly immoral. And we disagree.

When I was a boy, we didn't have paintball so we used bb-guns and sometimes 22s (just kicking up the dirt near the opponent). We would have argued then, the same way paintball proponents argue today. Amazingly, some of the women I know think men are stupid. Go figure.

[FScouter]

We are here to help young people learn to make ethical choices over their lifetimes. They watch what we do and listen to what we say. Whether we intend to or not, they learn ethics by what we say and do.

 

As members of BSA, we have agreed to conduct the program within the rules and guidelines that have been set forth. Right or wrong, BSA has determined that paintball and several other activities are not authorized within the BSA program. It would be an unethical choice to conduct these activities under the Scouting program. It is an unethical choice to plot ways to circumvent the rules and conduct the unauthorized activity anyway.

 

Yes, there will be times when rules, ethics, and personal beliefs conflict. But our personal desires and beliefs cannot trump the rules we have agreed to abide by. What one does in ones personal life is personal. But when we are working with other peoples children under the umbrella of Scouting, we need to abide by the rules of Scouting.

[Trevorum]

"What one does in ones personal life is personal. But when we are working with other peoples children under the umbrella of Scouting, we need to abide by the rules of Scouting."

 

Funny, that's precisely what Mr. Dale thought. He kept his personal life totally private and separate from Scouting...

 

(oops. my bad. I wasn't going to say anything more except in the issues forum. But the set-up was just too good. OK, I really mean it this time ...)

[dan]

Trevorum

Could you please tell me what your definition of totally private is? It sure must be different than mine.

 

Everyone else, since Trevorum is done posting in this thread.

When is it a Boy Scout outing versus a group of friends getting together to go shoot each other?

When the PLC plans it?

When it is announced at a meeting?

When a patrol sets it up during a patrol meeting?

When it is setup at home and not discussed at the meeting at all?

Where is the line?