Thick Skin

[firecrafter]

In reading these forums I've observed that a number of members are current Scoutmasters, or have served as such in the past. I would very much appreciate your imput on our situation. Other's thoughts are of course welcome.

 

I have been fortunate enough to work with two very fine Scoutmasters in the past ten years. I watched as one stood their ground for years and finally resigned because of bickering committee members. Now, I see the second SM continually criticized and undermined by committee members. Is this something that just goes with the SM territory?

 

It's my understanding that the SM is in charge of the program, the Committee Chairman is in charge of the Committee, and the COR/IH oversees everyone. Some members (certainly not all) of this committee gossip, backbite, and question most decisions the SM makes. I thought the Committee was there to support the SM, give guidance, and facilitate the scout program. I'd like to see us stick to the business at hand.

 

Our current SM is a good man. The scouts love him. He has the approval & support of the CO and most of the parents.

 

The conflicts seem to mainly fall into the area of dicipline. There are a few adults who want the SM to ignore-even reward bad behavior. He refuses to advance scouts who don't meet the requirements. There was the same conflict between the last SM & committee. SM would make a decision-committee/parents would pressure the SM to change it. Some, it seems, would like to ignore the requirements for scout spirit/living the scout oath & law/leadership...Those ARE requirements, are they not?

 

In my experience a SM is always the one to make the hard calls. At the end of the day it's his/her name, his/her butt on the line. Seems they are usually pulling more than their share of the load too. These folks are volunteers, giving up many, many hours for our kids.

 

I see it as a trust issue. You have to trust the SM. The SM from time to time will need to make judgement calls. Isn't that their job? If his/her judgement is sound, I don't need to know the "dirt" on every scout. I personally think it's inappropriate to discuss a scouts shortcomings in a room full of adults. Although some adults, sickeningly so, seem to relish that kind of talk. I don't see the need for the entire committee to assemble and debate johnny scouts lack of advancement or click off a list of his misdeeds. The exception is a serious health or safety issue that affects the entire troop. Of course in that case the committee needs to be aware.

 

A little background:We have always encouraged all parents to join the committee (maybe not the best idea in all cases). The CC, a good guy, is very "diplomatic" and seems to have a hard time reining certain members in. The SM typically handles any discipline problem between a scout and his partents, then makes a brief, confidental report during committee meetings. And yes, committee members have been trained. As always, there is that one disgruntled past leader behind the scenes stirring the pot...

 

So... my question is, how do we get beyond micro managing committee members? Does the SM just get tough & tell them "who's boss"? How much explaining does the SM need to do? What exactly does the SM/Committee relationship look like in reality? Where are the lines drawn here? Is this all just par for the course? Help us! I have visions of six hour long committee meetings!

firecrafter

[AnneinMpls]

Good morning, Firecrafter

I'm starting off with a smile because I'm afraid I may have some harsh things to say. Please take it with a grain of salt, because I only have your posts here to go on, ok?

I just finished reading through your posts to date and a couple things jump out at me right away.

1. Your position is Committee Member, yes? I'm glad you are supportive of your SM - he definitely needs folks in his corner supporting him as it sounds like he's doing a super job under difficult circumstances. But, unless/until your position title changes, you might need to rein back a bit on the micromanaging yourself - you're not in a position in which this is helping. Many of the issues you've raised are the perview of the SM, and other issues you need to let lay in the laps of the UC and CC. It's take a deep breath time - what doesn't *matter* doesn't matter.

2. Your troop started 3 years ago out of a conflict-ridden situation and that's a nasty heritage that will continue to bite your unit in the proverbial butt. It seems you all got the active/uppity parents and left behind the do-nothings. Terrible split to have and difficult to overcome.

3. It sounds like your Troop Committee is bloated with folks with no real job to do. So they'll continue to create their own job descriptions with items such as Second-guess the SM, Brow-beat Scouts, Discuss and Gossip ad nauseum.

I think ASMs serve at the pleasure of the SM, because the SM is responsible for them, so if the ASM is as bad as what you're telling us, it's up to the SM to drop him from the charter. (I think?)

*IF* you were the CC, I'd recommend cutting the fat from the Committee. Keep only those folks with actual committee positions, and if you need one or two "at large" positions to keep valuable folks on board, then do that. You need a CC. You need outdoor, advancement, treasurer, etc. You do not need Chief Gossip-monger, Vice-chief gossip-monger, Asst. to the Vice-chief gossip-monger and so on. But, you're not the CC. So....that brings me to the most pointedly pointy question: what *is* your role in the troop? What is your position on the Committee? Your focus on doing your own job to your very best will serve as role model to the rest of the committee - that's where you need to be most active. If you have a good relationship with the CC, then you might gently pass on these or other suggestions that might make things more workable, but you must realize it's really not your call, at least as far as I can tell from what you've posted.

In peace!

Anne in Mpls

[MaScout]

What is your position in the troop? Are you in a position where you can do something about this?

 

One thing that works over time is to be prepared and on the offensive with positive feedback about the SM. Before they can get into the negatives, start out with giving SM kudos on a couple things done. This won't change things today, but over a period of time, they'll start seeing what you're seeing.

 

How are you at handling conflict? If they start in on the SM, do you have the skills to deflect the gossip and redirect the discussion in a more positive direction? Something like, "Well that is very interesting, but how does that pertain to the issue at hand?" or "Could we get back to the agenda item. I really need to get home and help my son/spouse with..." Now don't mistake me...I'm the world's worst with tact. I calls it like I sees it. That isn't always the best diplomacy tactic. I'm working on changing that in myself. But I've seen the above ideas put into practice, and the people doing it were GOOD.

 

Support your SM. Let him/her know you are in their corner. Discover the other adults who believe in the SM & how s/he is doing, and get them to be verbal. Be verbal about your support.

 

Positive attitudes beget optimism. Negative attitudes beget...oh, a whole raft of negative things I don't want to get into...

 

I am a SM. There are times I've wanted to tuck tail and RUN from the adults. I just keep reminding myself that it's about the kids. We now have an AWESOME CC who is 150% supportive. The last couple years have been SO much easier!

 

Hang in there. YOUR SM NEEDS YOU!!! Bless you for noticing and caring.

 

Ma

[Beavah]

Yah, firecrafter, this is a common problem in many troops out there, eh? Good SM's naturally have to say "no" sometimes, otherwise they wouldn't be good SM's. Some parents aren't used to being told "no," or to have their child told "no." If you've got them on your committee because somewhere along the line someone was dumb enough to invite everyone to be on the committee, then yah, it's always a drag on the SM. In my experience, open committees only work with like-minded folks; and sometimes not even then. Every parent bein' on da committee is definitely not the BSA model program.

 

How troops handle this is all over the place. Most, unfortunately, aren't very selective about committee members. Some strong CC's run tight meetings and simply rule out of order any item that trespasses into the SM's jurisdiction. That works if you've got a strong CC. Sometimes a strong core group of committee members stares such stuff down by social pressure. That works if you've got a strong core group of MC's. Sometimes, a long-time SM has so much "social capital" that he can just stare down these things. That works if you've got a well-liked long-time SM.

 

The point is that there needs to be somebody in your organization whose job it is to deal with re-educatin' those that need it. Most good volunteers aren't that great at dealing with conflict, while the problem-cases relish it. You have to find a person who can handle it - UC, CC, COR, former SM, somebody.

 

Good communication also helps. Regular, positive parent newsletters, trip reports, publicity, etc. etc. also helps keep the snipers in check. If the CC starts out each meeting with positive reports, it becomes hard for the snipers to jump in, as Ma suggests.

 

Ultimately, though, the CC and COR have to make decisions that are in the best interests of the program as a whole. You've already lost one key volunteer in your former SM. How many more key volunteers can you afford to wear out? Are the snipers really worth keeping around at that price?

 

 

 

[firecrafter]

Thanks for you quick responses Anne & Ma! No offense taken at all! I understand you have only my posts to go on-so much to explain, so much to type!

 

To clarify, yes, I am currently a member of the troop committee. I want you to understand that I come here asking questions about "how things are done" because I respect the years of scouting these forums represent. I am learning that things that have been presented in our troop as set in stone are, in actuality not. I know that things don't change overnight, nor would I expect them to. Understand that some of these things have been dragging on for years. Mostly I am here gathing information, to be as Ma suggested, on the offence. I'd like to be able to intelligently defend the SM, CC and others when they come under attack.

 

Our troop began as a small group of families who were disatisfied with the behavior allowed in our previous troop. We all had similar goals and an understanding that we would be respectful and upfront with each other. Those were the glory days with the new troop! Most of those parents are retired now, as their boys reached Eagle rank (4 to date!). What we have now is an entirely new set of parents/Committee Members, and of course the demographics have changed. I believe what we ae experiencing are growing pains.

 

Our current CC is a good man. He & I have an excellent relationship and I respect his judgement. He also has great repoire with the scouts and SM. He has complained many times about the micro-managing of our Committee (to them). Although he is in agreement with the SM, the CC is a person who hates conflict. When he took the position we were in those glory days , thus little conflict. He has sadly been worn down by the constant bickering that has gone on since. They are frankly driving him crazy! He plans to retire. The IH has approached me about filling the CC postion. Now...you see why my interest.

 

The committee has been given a wide berth over the last year or so. SM is trying to close, or at least reduce the gap. I'm trying to understand where the lines are drawn between the SM/Committee. We seem to have a group of folks who want to add a lot of arbitrary rules to those already in place by BSA. Some CMs want every decision disscussed then brought to a vote, no matter how small. I feel like time constraints make this unrealistic. How much imput should the Committee expect? It seems to me that they are limited in some ways, such as "final answer" senarios. If I am mistaken I want to be corrected. This is why I ask how other units operate.

 

It's my understanding that we serve our CO, and adhere to their standards, and that the SM is to run the program under their direction and BSA guidelines. Am I correct? Often times I notice that BSA literature is, intentionally I think, very generic. It seems to go on the assumption that CO, SM, CC, and other leaders are honorable people-and leaves much up to their discretion as far as individual unit organization goes. I think that's great-as the folks getting their hands dirty, IMHO, are the ones who should run the unit.

 

In our case, we have a lot of uninvolved committee members who only show up when the proverbial poo is ready to hit the fan. And too often, they are the ones slingin' da poo! ;)This really needs to stop. I do think the committee needs to be pared down. If I take the position, I intend to do so-which I'm sure will be popular!

 

I currently do several job on the committee involving record keeping, etc. I feel that I do my job well and am positive in meetings. I'm a "calls it like I sees it" guy too, so I don't have any trouble speaking up. I also understand how to present things tactfully. I am one of those trying to keep things moving in a positive direction. I know from their comments that the SM/CC appreciate my help & support.

 

The ASM was taken off the charter (IH requested this) at the beginning of the year. ASM has since lurked behind the scenes making phone calls & causing division. Nothing we can really do about that. It does amaze me that the same people who complained about him seem to relish his gossip.

 

It's sad when dealing with adults takes center stage in a program for boys. We are constantly striving to do a better job. I think it's time for the parents to take a seat and allow the leaders to focus on the scouts, rather than wasting time defending their every decision. That is only IMHO.

I welcome your thoughts on this matter. Thanks for reading!

firecrafter

 

[Eamonn]

Adults not playing nice is a big problem.

I'm sure that there is no easy fix.

It seems that some parents are happy to not have any involvement and others become real pains in the neck or maybe a little lower!

Improved communication will help.

Thinking about adding an extra meeting might help. (I know we need extra meetings like we need a head cold)

If the Scoutmaster, Committee Chair and the Chartered Organization Rep, can get together before the Committee meeting and plan the agenda, going over what they want, looking at what the pitfalls might be and coming to some sort of agreement before the meeting they can then come off as being a team, who knows what they want and where they are going.

This is how the District key 3 works.

While I was District Chair the key 3 met weekly over a few adult beverages, we looked at how things were going, new things that were on the horizon and looked for ways of getting the committee to buy into what we were doing.

One sure way of improving the committee is by giving people real jobs and things to do and making them accountable for doing them. (This is up to the Chair.) There needs to be follow up calls and reports before the meeting.

It's strange that the most vocal people will either step up to the plate or they will just fade away.

Committee meetings should be all about reports, not moans and groans.

It does need to be explained to all the Committee members, that they didn't appoint the leaders, the Chartering Organization did and only the Chartering Organization can remove him or her.

Of course none of us are going to get our own way all of the time and every now and then something just comes out of no where.

At our last committee meeting, I gave a report about this years summer camp and said that we would be discussing next years at our next Quarterdeck meeting (Sea Scout PLC.) Out of no where the cost of next years summer camp came up.

I was caught off guard. It wasn't a agenda item.

I did have a couple of ideas that I was going to throw out at the Quarterdeck meeting, but nothing that I'd really given any thought or done any homework on -My thinking being that this is up to the Scouts. In fact I'd thought about having the Boatswain do some brain-storming and maybe having the Scouts follow up by doing the homework.

Before I knew what had happened the committee had said that next years summer camp / whatever couldn't cost more than $500.00 a person.

While I'm sure we can work within the limit they have set, it does rule out some of the ideas that I had and maybe it's going to prevent the Scouts doing something that they wanted to do?

Heck if the price of gas keeps going up we could end up in my back yard!!

I know some of the parents/ committee members are a little worried, about letting the youth members decide what they want to do.

I'm maybe a little upset that they don't have enough faith in me. But at the end of the day that's just the way it is.

The committee is just as much a part of the ship and just as important as the adult leaders.

Eamonn.

[t158sm]

Too many times the committee thinks they are more than what they should be. The committee's job is to provide support to the troop program - they do not run the troop. In my troop the Scouts run the troop themselves. Discipline is handled by the Scouts themselves. First by the patrol leader, then to the PLC, then to the ASM over that patrol. If these steps are not sufficient then it is brought to the SM and handled at his discretion. Only a VERY SERIOUS matter would be brought to the attention of the committee. To me this simply falls outside the parameter of their responsibilities.

 

By reading your previous posts it seems like the CC needs to step up and reign in the trouble makers. Scouting needs to be for the boys not for peoples personal agendas. If the CM's are not serving useful purposes they should not be reregistered. Don't just let anyone have a say in committee meetings. Only registered members in the troop should participate. Parents are welcome to attend and can be placed on the agenda, but otherwise are not involved in committee meetings.

 

 

[Eagledad]

Happy Easter All

 

Well, Eamonn beat me to it again. When our Troop got to a size where we had a big committee, I started meeting with just the CC and a couple other trusted members to hash difficult subject. We discussed the situation until we came up with a good solution to propose to the committee.

 

The problem stated that many members only show up during committee meetings is one I've seen happen, not in scouts, but churches and schools that are doing fairly well. Folks are always looking to get in a good thing.

 

One other thing I started doing when these kinds of things happened is required all adults to come to my Aims and Methods meeting twice a year. It give me a chance to make sure everyone understood how the program worked and how and why I do things with the scouts. I could justify everything I did with the scouts, could they?

 

Your in a strang spot, but I would suggest the adults start backing up their talk with what the BSA says, the SM included. When that doesn't end discussions, maybe a trust third party can come in. We had a good unit commissioner that I made sure attended if we had a difficult situation.

 

Not to lecture, but this all goes back to the importance of the unit, the whole unit, understanding the Vision or goals of the program. Usually these kinds of things happen when adults who don't understand the overall goals start disputting some of the ways the unit is working toward that vision or goal. Maybe it is time for everyone to get back to basics.

 

I know I'rambling, so I'll let the others give input.

 

BArry