Registration and Insurance Please

[SR540Beaver]

I love our troop. Having served in two other troops over a two year period before finally settling in this one, our troop is one of the best I've seen. We are truly boy led. We have a great program full of opportunities. We ran about 35 scouts per meeting until we crossed over 20 Webelos. Now we are bursting at the seams. We just returned from a climbing and rappelling campout this past weekend that had 46 scouts and 23 adults in attendance. Many of the adults were new boy parents checking us out for the first time. I believe that the number of adult campers will fall off some in the future. It is not unusual to have around 10 adults go on campouts. Heck, when you have to transport 40 boys and two trailers, you have to have a good number of adults.

 

I walked in late to our troop committee meeting last night and got in on the tail end of a conversation about requiring adult registration for insurance purposes. I don't know if it was just a tactic to cut down on the number of adults or not. Our adults function as a model patrol with our own patrol box and gear and tents. That was obviuosly stretched considerably with 23 adults. The gist of what I think I heard was that we really needed these new parents to register if they were going to continue to go on campouts and provide transportation for BSA insurance purposes. That just didn't ring true with me. Parents should always be welcome on campouts and even expected to pitch in and help with transportation even if they don't stay and camp. I'm not aware of registration for insurance purposes being any kind of requirement I've ever heard of.

 

Like I said, I walked in at the tail end and I did not discuss it with anyone afterward.

 

Thoughts?

[Eagle76]

(Envious comments about your troop deleted)

 

We collect insurance information (carrier, coverage amounts, etc.) and I think also driver's license numbers from all parents who are going to be providing transportation. I think that covers us.

[SR540Beaver]

Eagle76,

 

True enough. It has been about a year since I filled out a Tour Permit. I used to handle that for our old troop. All of the drivers and their info must be entered on the form if an adult is transporting boys other than their own. I'll have to dig out one of the forms and see what it says about insurance.

[SueM]

I think that as long as you have one registered adult on an outing that's all that is required. It might be a good idea though to keep your unregistered adults in a group where someone can keep an eye on them for a while though, so that they are not causing some possible safety or other issues due to lack of understanding of things like the youth protection policies and 2 deep leadership or other BSA policies. Many times they also try to be too helpful to the boys.

 

sue m.

[Lisabob]

We recently decided on a similar policy for all drivers (anybody who wants to drive children that are not their own should be a registered leader). Up until now, we've only required a current license, registration, and insurance information for drivers.

 

THis is in part due to concerns about insurance but also due to the fact that some members felt the BSA was better equipped to do background checks on people than we are. It has come to light that a few folks who DO have vehicle insurance, registrations, and licenses, none the less are probably NOT in any position to be driving other people's children anywhere.

 

This spilled over into a conversation about possibly requiring all adults on campouts to be registered leaders too and that was nixed as being too restrictive.

 

In reality, the majority of adults who are likely to be driving and attending campouts anyway are already registered as troop leaders so it I don't think it will have a whole lot of impact on day-to-day operations.

 

Lisa'bob

 

[FScouter]

Ahh, the old "for-insurance-purposes" ruse. I don't think anyone still falls for that time-worn excuse to blame a 3rd party for your decision. If the committee doesn't want adults on campouts, they ought to come right out and state up front the REAL objections.

[SR540Beaver]

FScouter,

 

That is just an assumption on my part. Like I said, I walked in on the tail end of the discussion. I have an e-mail to my buddy who is the Committee Chair to get the real skinny on what I missed. I am one of three ASM's for the new boy patrols. It was made very clear up front when the boys visited as prospects and after they joined that parents have the right and are welcome to come on campouts.....with the stipulation that they allow the patrol structure to function and to leave the boys alone. It was fun watching them this weekend walking half way to the patrol sites and spying, but staying away.

 

Having 20 adults on a campout does put a strain on things though. Adults can and occasionally do bring their own tent. The troop does have some nice, tall, big tents for the adults to use. 99% of the time, the troop tents are used by adults. This was the first time that we didn't have enough to go around and people HAD to bring their own. We are almost at our limit for the boys, but still have one or two extras left. Since the adults function as a patrol, it was a little bit of a strain cooking for 23. Heck, we had enough for 3 patrols of adults, but didn't have 3 patrol boxes, stoves, lanterns, etc.

 

From some looking around I did on the internet today, ault drivers are requirend to have insurance. The insurance provided by the BSA mainly covers scouts and registered adults in the event of an accident. Wanting regular campers and transporters to be registed isn't really unreasonable. With 20 more boys in the troop, we certainly will need more folks to do BOR's.

[Beavah]

BSA insurance is always secondary/excess coverage for driving, eh? So in other words, each parent's normal auto policy covers first; da BSA policy only comes in once the auto policy is exceeded.

 

The place where there is a difference is that for most other things, the BSA insurance is primary if you are registered, but secondary if you are not. So if Joe Parent dumps gasoline into a fire and burns two boys, then the liability is on his insurance (homeowners). If Joe is a registered committee member, then it's on the BSA.

 

So being registered is a help for the parents, but not particularly for the troop. From a safety perspective, training & screening is more important.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

I understand that we grown-ups like to keep playing the grand game.

 

If there are 20 adults and the adult patrol box supports 8, say: Here's the deal: The first 8 adults who sign up get to use the equipment. After that, maybe we adults have to have a work day or two, get a tent or four bought, and build a second adult leader patrol!

 

I agree with Beavah, though: The Troop policy is: We want you as Scouters, trained and capable of supporting an array of duties wiht our Troop.

[sunsetandshadow]

Just another perspective from a concerned parent. I want all adults on campout with my children to be registered adults for the reason of the background check. I also support the registration for insurance purposes. There may be some who use that as an excuse but I really believe in it. We know of a woman who was in a car accident while trasporting her own daughter and two of their friends. One of the friends has several broken vertabre and is without any medical insurance. They are now sueing for millions of dollars to cover expenses. Insurance is very important and because of things like this we no longer transport any children other than our own.

[Eagle74]

We've been running into the same issue for the last couple of years - lots of adults (parents) to the point that the ratio of adults to kids is sometimes more than 1 adult for every 2 scouts. Finally came to the realization that sometimes we seem to be running two programs; one for adults (not troop leaders) and one for the Scouts. Kinda like the scout outing is also an escape outing for the adults and naturally with a different adult agenda. Have been discussing many potential solutions, but haven't arrived at a good answer. This is one of those forum threads where I hope to hear how others are able to work it out.

 

Additionally we, like others, also have found that a large number of adults strains the gear supply, cooking, etc. One hesitates to raise dues to purchase additional gear for adults, but maybe some type of participation fee would be in line. You're right, having enough adults for three adult "patrols", but trying to work it as one is difficult.

 

We have always run an open program, with parents welcome to attend any event, but in the past we would get a few on this outing and others on another, spread out throughout the year. Lately, there are a number of regulars for many outings in addition to the occassional's. I don't think that requiring registration is necessarily the answer. We usually have six or seven registered adults on outings, but that does perhaps place an extra burden on them to be watchdogs over the unregistered adults on the outing.

 

Beavah, agree with the gist of your post, but gasoline on the fire is a bad example. Scouting insurance is "at will" and violation of G2SS or other BSA policy would allow BSA to refuse to cover (as it has been explained to me). That case would leave the adult hanging in the breeze on their own, anyway.

[Lisabob]

I find it interesting that so many troops have this problem. Most of the time when we talk about adult participation in scouting we bemoan the lack of it, not the wealth of it!

 

My son's troop charges a camping fee for everyone who attends (leaders, scouts, parents along for the trip, etc.). It is usually somewhere between $10-$15. This is not a deterrent to very many parents. We too often have a better than 1:2 adult:boy ratio at campouts and other events. We too struggle with how to act as a "model patrol" when the adult patrol is so large. Thing is, most of these adults in our case are regular attendees who already ARE registered leaders . In most cases, these folks are not there to keep tabs on their own boys or to "check out" the troop. Their own sons are generally mid-older teens or have aged out. These folks are there because they enjoy it.

 

This is certainly a strength in many ways but like Eagle74, sometimes I wonder if we're running two programs; one for the boys and one for their parents.

 

Which leads me to wonder if in some weird way, we're a victim of our own success! The program is such fun for the adults that THEY don't want to leave. And...does this put additional pressure on the "boy led" concept when this happens?

 

I'm not exactly complaining, mind you. I like the fact that we've got some really knowledgable, experienced adults around. I'm just musing I guess.

 

Lisa'bob

 

[John-in-KC]

Two comments:

 

First, if we adults ARE going to set an example, then we need to act under certain rules of Scouting when we go to the field:

 

1) First call on equipment is to the youth. If there is a need for more equipment for the adults, guess what? Adults need to pull together the bux for themselves. No bucks, no Buck Rodgers.

 

2) In the field, we need to operate to some degree as patrols. That means cells of 8 people doing common cooking and cleanup. We've got a lot to show these young men about "cooperate and graduate" as well as how to cook some really fantastic food in the field for not a lot of $$$.

 

3) In the field, adults need to show a certain level of deference to the SPL. It helps the younger men when we respect whoever the leader is, without regard to age or experience. That may well (and properly should) mean we Scouters don't get the best tent sites in the camp. First call on those should be to the youth.

 

My thoughts here.

 

YIS

[CA_Scouter]

Echoing John-in-KC

 

1) Adults are responsible for their own equipment, period.

 

2) Adults are their own patrol, handle their own food, duty rosters, etc.

 

3) Adults mucking around with the patrols get the boot from the SM ( me! ). No, not really 'the boot', just a gentle touch on the shoulder and a gentle reminder that the stun gun will be used the next time... :-)

 

Adults attending campouts pay all the required fees, campsite, food, gas whatever... we are trying to look like a patrol, so we try to work it the same as the Scouts do.

 

Finally, adults are on their own on campouts - no special programs or such - we expect them to jump in when asked, and they always do. Otherwise, they can grab a book and observe, the point being, the campouts are all about the Scouts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Beavah, agree with the gist of your post, but gasoline on the fire is a bad example. Scouting insurance is "at will" and violation of G2SS or other BSA policy would allow BSA to refuse to cover (as it has been explained to me).

 

Yah, of course gasoline on da fire is a bad example! Insurance isn't for when you've done your best, because if you did everything right there isn't liability to begin with. Insurance is for when you do something dumb, eh? And there's no such thing as an "at will" insurance policy. That would be called "insurance fraud." In my experience, most of the people who tell you BSA insurance won't cover if X or Y or Z are being dishonest. Or dumb.

 

But the example raises a question for all da troops with a whole mess of unregistered parents formin' multiple patrols. How do you train them all? That's a lot of work. Some of 'em come in with no more skill than a newly-joined scout, and some bad habits to break to boot! The only person I've ever seen do the gasoline thing was one of those unregistered parents.