Adult leaders gambling

[my3sons220]

I am writing because my son told me this week that the leaders on the last camping trip were playing cards. I did not think much about it due to the fact we play cards all the time with our sons. (Rummy) Then he told me he thought they may have been drinking due to the fact there were Crown Royal bags on the table. I then asked what card game were they playing? He told me poker. I thought then the bags were for the poker chips and I said this to him. He then tells me that they play for real money not poker chips. I do not know what to do about this. I do not think I want my son who is a 17 year old Eagle scout with these leaders. My husband and myself were very active in the troop and never let my son go camping without 1 of us until he was 16. But, since his younger brother has joined a cub scout pack we are very busy with it. I am now the cub master! What should I do? We could leave the troop and not say anything. But, our pack feeds into that troop! I do not want him with these leaders! I know if this had happened earlier in his scouting journey I would have wanted to leave the troop. HELP!

[Lisabob]

Welcome to the forum, my3sons.

 

I can understand that you might find this problematic if the leaders are gambling at a troop event. Still, it might be a good thing to ask (discreetly and calmly) about these behaviors rather than just leaving the troop. It is possible that your son was mistaken either in what he thought he saw or in what he thought someone said. I know with my own son that this sometimes happens (inadvertantly) and a quick conversation with the SM and other adults present often sorts things out.

 

If it turns out that your son was incorrect: the troop leaders should still know because, let's look at what your son believed was happening: drinking AND gambling! Obviously this is not the impression that most boy scout leaders want to offer to the boys and (again, assuming that this is *not* what's happening) the leaders might just not realize that this is the impression that some of the boys have developed. Maybe the leaders need to re-think how they come across, as perception is very important.

 

If it turns out that your son was correct: leaders ought to know that they shouldn't be gambling at scout events, but maybe they're playing for pennies and didn't think it would be a big deal. Or maybe they're playing for serious money. Either way, give them a chance to explain what's going on and ask them to make sure that gambling (and drinking!) is not happening at troop events. If they can do that, and otherwise you've had a good experience with this group, again I'd caution a little forbearance before you decide to leave the group. If they can't make a promise that this behavior won't continue then you may need to consider your options.

 

Lisa'bob

[kittle]

Lisa'bob gave some very good advice.

 

You said in your post that you and your husband had been very active in the Troop until younger son joined Cub Scouts and that now you are busy. Are you too busy that one of you can't still volunteer to go on campouts? Our Troop never turns down an adult that wants to go.

 

I am going to be in the same boat as you in fall of 2007 when my younger son starts Cub Scouts. But I don't want to not be involved with older son's troop because of younger son.

[Oak Tree]

My3sons,

 

Lisa'bob's advice is good. Let me ask you, did you ever see anything like this before? You say you were on every trip that your son went on up until he was 16. That sounds like a lot of trips. I certainly wouldn't let one report like this drive you away from the troop. You're the Cubmaster and you have a lot of reasons to want the troop to be successful.

 

What does your son think? He's 17. I'm sure it's possible for him to handle the idea that some adults play poker. Does he want to quit the troop over this? When you say you "never let your son go camping without 1 of us", it sounds like you're trying hard to protect your son, maybe even sounding a little overprotective. See what he thinks about it.

 

But I'd certainly also try a couple private, calm conversations with the troop leaders to see what the story is.

 

Oak Tree

[Lynda J]

When I was a Web leader I had a new Scout come into the Den. His mother informed me that she would attend any activity that we had that was away from our meeting place. I told her that it was fine. She told me that she would be at every camping trip. I said this was fine as long as she took YPT since she would be attending with other boys there and that our CO requires that any adult attending over nights be registered and have YPT.

 

She did this. She said that the Pack they had been with in Wichita Kansas it was common for the leaders to require the boys to be in their tents by 9:00 and they had to have lights out by 10:00. At that point the leaders got their coolers out with their beer. I told her that if I ever saw any leader drinking on Scout property on an outing I would personally turn them into the camp ranger and then when we got back to the Council. Since in our Council it is against policy to have any alcohol on the property. She went the first couple of outings then turned her son over to us.

 

I can not imagin any leader taking the risk of drinking when they are camping and responsible for Scouts. I can not imagin having to tell a parent that their son was injured and didn't get the treatment he needed because I had been drinking and couldn't get him to help soon enough. And IMHO any leader that allows drinking on any Scout outing is risking being sued by a parent if a boy get injured.

 

Don't get me wrong. I love a good drink. But when I am responsible for the safety of a group of Scouts that isn't the time.

[fotoscout]

Here's another opportunity for someone to step up and show leadership.

 

They want to go on a church outing to drink and play poker, that's fine; they want to go on a family reunion to drink and play poker, that's fine, a hunting trip with the buddies, that's fine, a long weekend to an out-of-town football game, that's fine.....BUT IT DOESN'T BELONG IN BOY SCOUTS!

 

This is just some of the behavior that contributes to declining membership.

[John-in-KC]

This is the dupe, believe it or not. Long story.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[John-in-KC]

Lots of good advice here.

 

Short Version: As Cubmaster, you have the ability to take this Troop out of play for your Pack if need be.

 

The Long Version:

 

You have an advantage: You're the Cubmaster. YOU are responsible for the Pack's program. You can set ground rules.

 

You have the ability to discuss, program officer to program officer, the PERCEPTIONS of the youth as reported to you. You can make crystal clear your expectations of adult conduct. If the adult leaders in the troop persist in a bad impression to youth, you can tell the Webelos Den Leader: DO NOT VISIT TROOP xxxx under any circumstances. You can also tell Webelos II parents "I believe the adult leadership of Troop xxxx fails to meet the standards set in the "Adult Association" method of Scouting. I strongly recommend you do not send your youth to Troop xxxx."

 

I think the Troops Chartered Partner would be very interested in hearing that you had closed the door to support from, or graduation to, that troop.

 

I think your own Chartered Partner would be very interested in why you "shut out" a Troop ... especially when you report a perception of inappropriate adult behavior when in the field.

 

As an aside, wasn't inappropriate "adult association" risking unsafe scouting the real gut-check we were getting to the sod-surfing thread?

 

[John-in-KC]

From the Guide to Safe Scouting:

 

The Boy Scouts of America prohibits the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members.

 

As always, boldface in the Guide is BSA policy.

 

If there was booze, you have another lever: "If I hear of leaders using alcohol in the field again; then I will schedule a meeting with our Council Scout Executive."

 

Let us know how this turns out.

 

[fotoscout]

Shutting out the Troop could ultimately lead to the end of the troop, which would only result in a bad situation for the boys. There is no reason to think that they have a bad program, just very bad "choices" by the leadership.

 

These guys should be warned...once! They need to have their troop culture changed. If they don't change, they should have there membership revoked, and new leaders allowed to step in, or, Council should merge them with another nearby troop.

 

Aggressive value based actions on the part of a CO or SE, go a long way. It doesn't have to happen too often for the message to get out!(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

[John-in-KC]

fotoscout,

 

That's why I advocate talking with the Chartered Partner and the professional staff even as our Cubmaster lays down the law with the Scoutmaster.

 

Drinking at a BSA youth event is just not acceptable. There is NO WIGGLE ROOM on this.

 

As a Commissioner I know says: This is a time for declarative sentences in one or two syllable words: "If grown-up leaders drink on Scout trips, I will keep my Cubs from your Troop. Do you understand this?"

[dan]

Has there been a turnover in adult leaders at this troop? You said that you have gone on trips with this troop for years and have never seen drinking or gambling before, which is why I asked about a change in adult leadership.

 

Now for the gambling part, you need to ask the Scoutmaster if they where playing cards, if they where, ask them if they using chips or money. Whatever they say you only have 2 options either pull your son out of the troop or do not. There is no law that says people cannot have a friendly game of poker. There is no rules that I am aware of that states no gambling allowed in the BSA. No one is going to back you if you raise a stink about gambling, some people think nothing is wrong with gambling during a scout outing.

You are trying to push your values to them, if the troops leaders values say that there is nothing wrong with gambling, that is the values of that troop. And it would be a very bad thing for you to tell the parents in your pack not to visit this troop, you should only inform them of the facts, If you ask the troop if they play cards and or gamble on outings, and they say yes, you should than tell your parents that in a matter of fact way.

As Sargent Friday "said just the facts ma'am".

 

 

John-in-KC

I think you have made your point and I agree with you, BUT no one saw anyone drinking or even saw a bottle or anything. The original posters made it sound like she did not think they where drinking either. It was only a bag, bags do not hold liquor.

 

[Lisabob]

Dan, I agree that when push comes to shove, there are two choices (leave or don't). But there are also many steps along the way. In a situation like the one the original poster described, I hope that any adult would take a couple of minutes to do some fact checking before reaching any conclusion about staying or leaving.

 

As for gambling and scouts: I know that this is something we specifically discussed in our leader training. I'm sure someone else can provide chapter and verse, I can't at the moment but I'm pretty sure it is in the leader handbooks.

 

There is specific language prohibiting gambling, games of chance, etc., on the unit money earning applications. Also, scouts and scouters who attended the national jamboree had to sign off on a jambo code of conduct, which included the following statement:

"I understand that gambling of any form is prohibited" (see http://www.scouting.org/jamboree/pdf/67-102.pdf - this is #9 on pg. 5 )

 

 

I think many people who are involved in scouting wish to see the unit their child is in reflect similar values. That's not always a bad thing. Most scouting units and scouters I know of do make a rather big deal about the values that we say we are teaching the boys. And as a (somewhat vigilant) mom I admit that I would never turn my child over to any group of people whose values I was uncomfortable with - not even just for a couple of days of camping. So I guess I can see where the poster was coming from. It's just that they need to make sure they have an open line of communication with the troop leadership and give the leadership an opportunity to respond to their concerns. After all, if their 17 year old son earned his Eagle rank with this troop, they must be doing some things right!

 

Lisa'bob

[John-in-KC]

Dan,

 

Concur. That's why I said in my first post in this thread:

 

You have the ability to discuss, program officer to program officer, the PERCEPTIONS of the youth as reported to you. You can make crystal clear your expectations of adult conduct.

 

Cross-communication, effective listening, and feedback are essential. Lisa'bob's comments above are appropo as well. This unit has done things right in the past, and quite possibly is even now, but the youth saw something ... and they reported.

 

My3sons220 has the chance to ask the right questions and listen. If she doesn't hear the right answers, she, more than many parents, is in a good position to be an agent of change.

 

Based on the "no drinking" mandate of BSA, she would be within rights to report a possible incident to the Scout Executive ... and let the chips fall where they may. You and I both know SE's are rather disinclined to risk the Scouting brand name and program. I thought asking her to go one on one as a fellow program officer was a fairly moderate solution

 

[acco40]

My math challenged middle school Boy Scout discovered Texas Hold'em. He has seen me drink at home. A few times we have had family poker night (I rarely drink during this event). We do play for money (quarter top bet, three raise limit). He enjoys it more than I. Now, as SPL, he wanted to play Texas Hold'em as the troop "game" after a few troop meetings. As SM, I told him that possibly (I was going to run it by other adult leaders) but that we would use chips, not money, and declare winners based on chip count. I had no problem with this but understand that other parents may. I told him that I would need their approval first (I got it but we have not gone forward yet). Not popular with many, but gambling is a method to teach statistics, math, etc. I don't pass up those opportunities with my kids very often!

 

Now drinking? I remember feeling a little weird at my first district event (members and spouses of the district committee and a few professionals) and alcohol was being served (no youth present). I had a beer or two and we were not in uniform. However, still felt weird. Now, on one outing a few years ago when I was an Assistant Scoutmaster, we were on a canoe trip. I jokingly mentioned to one of the adults attending (non-leader) that in my life BC (before children) I had many a float trip with too much imbibing of beer. Well, later that evening that adult was sent out to get some food for our meal. The current SM was not in attendance. Well, next thing I knew the adult came back with the food and a six pack. He opened up a bottle for each adult in attendance and I wasn't quite sure what to do (I was not the leader in charge). Well, my mistake but I discretely got rid of the beer and about an hour later after praising him for his generosity, told him of the BSA policy wrt alcohol. He apologized profusely and that was that. In my book, no harm, no foul (sort of).

 

A college friend of mine told me about a Cub Scout event he took to a Cardinal baseball game many years ago. The pack had an outing to a baseball game. Every youth in attendance (non-uniformed) had a parent present. Well, my friend ordered a beer and drank it. He later asked me if he was in "violation" of anything and I told him that if he viewed the event as a Scout outing - yes. But if he viewed it as friends and their kids meeting at the ballpark (and the kids happened to be Scouts) - that no violation. He thought I was nuts and couldn't differentiate between the two.

 

As for myself, I just try to be on the safe side - no drinking during outings. I've got enough to worry about!