Feeder Pack and Troop Relations

[ASM59]

I wanted to get your impression/comments on the following:

 

We live in a smaller community (pop.4000). There are towns of similar or slightly larger size 4-5 miles away in several directions. Our Troop has always received Boys from the Pack in our town every year. Some years 2 new boys cross over, other years there may be 7 or 8 that cross over. We have always included the Pack on at lease 2 joint Webelos/Boy Scout outings per year. The "big event" is held in a "retreat center" in January; with competitions, skills development, and shameless plugs to try to convince the Webelos to join Boy Scouts. We have had as many as 50 Scouts, leaders, and Webelo parents attend this outing.

 

Last year (Jan 2005) we did such a good job of convincing the Webelos that they should join Boy Scouts that all 5 second year Webelos decided they wanted to join. In February, we went to the Blue & Gold Banquet to receive the new Scouts. After the ceremony, I went around to the tables to talk to the boys and their parents only to find out that the Webelos Two Den Leader and some other Pack Committee members had convinced all of the boys' parents that they should join another Troop in a neighboring town.

 

Our Committee was devistated. Our CC called the CC of the Pack to ask if we'd done something wrong that caused them to alow this to happen. We received no appologies, only comments that the boys decided where they wanted to join.

 

Last Spring (our other traditional joint Webelos/Boy Scout campout), I was the lone wolf among the adults saying that we still need to invite the Webelos. Our committee and some of the boys wanted nothing to do with the Pack. They thought that we should not help them at all anymore. I kept asking what part of the Scout Law that supports, and eventually they gave in and we had the outing. On the second night of the outing, just before bed, I was talking to one of the Webelos Parents. He said that there was a deliberate effort on the part of the Webelos Den Leader to convince the parents that they should have their boys join that same Troop in the neighboring town. I asked the Den Leader about this the next morning, and she said that she just wants the boys to know all of their options.

 

I would like some comments regarding this. Like, How would you react to having helped this Pack over and over and have them deliberately send their boys to another Troop.

 

There's more to the story, and an ending I'll share later...

 

ASM59

 

[gwd-scouter]

ASM59 - your story is certainly disappointing and I can understand your Troop's leadership in their feeling to stop helping out the Pack.

 

When I joined our Troop and took over as SM last year, I was hoping to have a few boys and fathers join when they got ready to graduate from Cub Scouts. I was their Cubmaster for a number of years and these families are members of the church that charters our Troop. But, when the time came, they joined another larger, longer running Troop. I was hurt, but decided not to take it personally as it is ultimately their choice.

 

I'll bet you sure felt lonely as the only adult willing to continue to offer such a great program to the Webelos. Am assuming from your post that no other Troop in your area offers anything like your "big event" so it's hard to understand why the DL is pushing boys to another Troop and away from yours.

 

Perhaps the DL knows scouts and leaders in that other Troop. The DL is of course correct in stating the boys/families should explore all their options and make their own decision, but I know that doesn't ease the feelings of resentment within your Troop when you all work so hard for these guys.

 

I guess on the bright side, the current DL will probably be joining the other Troop with the boys and you'll have a new Webelos den and leader to work with next year.

 

Don't lose heart. Troops and packs go through fluctuations in membership all the time. Some years are boom years, others are a bust. You sure have a great approach to recruiting, so perhaps this year is one of those bust years and next year will be a boom year.

 

Good luck. Can't wait to hear how it all works out.

[ScoutNut]

The bottom line is that it IS the decision of the boy & his family. Everyone in the Pack can be rooting for the other Troop, but it is up to the family to make the final decision. The Webelos have all been to your Troop's events, & I assume to visit the other Troop as well. The questions you should be asking the families that did not choose your Troop is what, exactly, are the qualities of the other Troop that they liked better. What, exactly, did they NOT like about your Troop. Let them know that you are interested in improving the Troop & need feedback (in other words-no blame/hard feelings).

 

The part of your story that I find upsetting is last year's B&G. The Webelos leaders & presumably the CM, all knew that NONE of the boys were really crossing over to your Troop. Yet, they still had YOUR Troop at the B&G to receive the boys & not the Troop they were really crossing to. To me, that is not only unfair to your Troop, but to the other Troop & the Webelos as well. The boys deserve to be welcomed by the leaders & boys of their future Troop. We have had crossover ceremonies with more than one Troop represented when the boys were not all joining the same Troop.

 

I would continue to invite the Webelos from that Pack (& others in your area) to events/meetings/etc. The boys have nothing to do with any of this & deserve to see your Troop in action. The Pack is another matter however. If you are asked to their B&G this year, I would make it a point to ask if any of the boys were planning to cross to your Troop. If not, I would suggest that the Pack contacts the Troop(s) that they ARE crossing to.

 

If this Pack is chartered by your CO then the SM should attend the B&G dinner as a representative of one the CO's units. If not, & you are not receiving any boys, then stay home.

 

[SemperParatus]

"There's more to the story, and an ending I'll share later..."

 

There's always a story, isn't there? However, I would not call any resolution an ending...just another brief interlude until the next story comes along.

 

I suspect you are running a great troop program and my guess is that the 'problem' is one of adult personality clashes or some other troop that talks a big show to lure kids/parents away.

 

Troop-pack relations are a long-term (re: decades) endeavor, that is not without blips along the way. You are doing the right thing to keep the troop reaching out. Such instances present a great opportunity to build stronger relations than ever.

 

My only real suggestion is that you help to fuel the notion that its not really a 'pack relationship' you are after, but a relationship with each individual boy in the pack. If that is strong, then den leaders and parents will have very little sway in which troop the boy wants to join.

[EagleInKY]

Semper is absolutely correct that it is a long-term relationship. Don't fret over one year's bump. I have to remind myself of that this year as we are having a similar issue. Several of our Webs are going to another troop or not going at all. I'm pretty sure that a disgruntled parent in our troop has been filling the ear of the Web II leader. He denies it, but I can't help but be suspicious. They work together and he parrots some of the same comments that this parent would make.

 

Anyway, I'm trying not to fret too much and remember that our relationship is much stronger than this one den. We've got great relations with several of the den leaders as well as several family ties into the pack. We'll keep caring and feeding the relationship and hope for better results next year.

[ASM59]

Thank you all for your posts, you didn't let me down. I purposely left off the ending of the story just to get all of your opinions on how this situation should be handled.

And now for the rest of the story...

 

I let you know that in the spring we had an outing with the Webelos and I was informed that there was an effort to persuade the families to have their boys join the other Troop. This past December, our Troop Committee called me into a meeting specifically to ask me if I planned to have the Webelos at our "traditional" Webelos/Troop outing in January. I was told that they had a problem with my allowing them to be there. I let them know that this program is all about the boys, and NOT about adult politics. I informed them that we are supposed to be here in a "service roll"; serving the boys. I further advised that the boys on the PLC decided unanimously that the Webelos should be invited, and that I intended to help them run the best program for the Webelos that we ever have. I was asked again, "Why?" I said that we need to always take the high road and put our best foot forward.

 

We did have the January outing and it was a blast. All of the boys had fun and learned a lot. I had the privilege of giving Scoutmaster Conferences to all of the Webelos present (part of AOL requirements now). Each boy expressed his desire to join Boy Scouts, but I didn't want to put any pressure on them with regard to which Troop, as I didn't know what their parents plans were for them.

 

I found out from the Webelos Den Leader two days before Blue & Gold that her son decided not to join Boy Scouts and that all of her other Webelos would be joining our Troop. Last weekend our Scouts and I received 6 new Scouts from the Pack.

 

Thanks for indulging me, feel free to make more comments...

ASM59

[firecrafter]

We have always encouraged every cub scout (& parent) who approaches us to visit each troop in the area. We feel strongly that each family should choose together which group they feel will best serve their son. The troops in our area are all very different and each has it's strengths & weaknesses. I haven't seen anyone in our group offended by the choices the boys make. We know that not every cubscout will choose our troop, but still do whatever we can do to help with their events. We do invite them to join us camping several times a year and help them meet their requirements when we can.

Congratulations on doing things the scout way no matter what the "payoff" is!

firecrafter

[dan]

First you should tell the pack that they are not your feeder pack, unless you have the same CO. Your committee should encourage the cubs and parents to visit other troops to pick the one that best fits their needs. The troop committee sure sounds like they are afraid of a little competition, which would make me look at other troops real quick. If the other troops in the area start recruiting this troop may be shrinking fast. If scout are going to a different town to join a troop the committee better understand real quick that they are no longer the only game in town.

Sounds like you are doing a great job of recruiting I am not sure if you will be able to continue this with this committee. Good Luck.

 

[ASM59]

I think our Troop Committee has "seen the light" now. And I think we understand why this all happened in the first place. It was like I said, "adult politics".

 

Mom and Dad of one of our former Scouts didn't care for the fact that we had to get on to him for his behavior and language at every outing. They also were upset when they were asked to pay 3 months back dues. They pulled him out of our Troop and he joined the Troop in question and the next month, he was the new SPL. I now know that the Troop was falling apart and his mother joined the Troop committee and Dad joined as SM (Mom is also on the Cub Pack committee from our town). She has friends on the Pack committee including the last two year's Webelos Two Den Leaders. Last year's Webelos Two leader is also working with the Troop in the other town. It seems that the Troop in the neighboring Town is now made up of a few adults and 4 or 5 boys from our town - no boys from the town where it is chartered. The SPL from the other Troop who used to be in our Troop, has dropped out of Scouting now, so I don't know the status of the Troop.

 

The Webelos Two leader this year gave up on pushing the boys in her Den to the other Troop when her son decided that he didn't want to join Boy Scouts.

 

Wow, I hope that all makes sense; if not I'm sure it'll air on a Soap Opera some day...

 

ASM59

[dan]

If the committee has seen the light. Does the troop have a feeder pack?

 

Will the committee suggest to the cubs to make sure and visit other troops?

 

I still say if the other troop starts recruiting, this one will fold.

If a committee is using the term feeder pack, they do not have a clue.

 

sorry, but when you turned the problem around to a cub scout mom, you sound no better than the committe.

[Lisabob]

ASM59, I can understand your frustration in your original post and I think it is unbelievable that a pack would invite you to their ceremony, only to inform you *after* the fact that those boys you just crossed over were going to some other troop. Really bad behavior there.

 

All of this webelos-scout transition stuff seems to bring out the worst in people sometimes. I've been amazed at the number of opportunities for mishaps, miscommunications, hurt feelings, etc. along the way. Worse, I think most of it could be avoided if units (troops and packs both) had a decent transition plan in place and communicated more effectively with each other.

 

As a former cub leader, here are three things I wish all troops would do to smooth the way:

 

1. Have a dedicated ASM for new scouts who handles the transition stuff all the way through - or a committee member - but someone who can serve as the contact person. In our experience, some troops had no one in this role, while others had someone but that person was usually wearing so many other hats that they really couldn't focus on this one area. Not having a specific person in this position leads to chaos and miscommunication.

 

2. Share scheduling information with packs much earlier. Most troops around here set their annual schedules in May or June. Why, then, do they all seem to wait until about a week before their upcoming events to let the WDLs know about them??? There seems to be this misconception that packs and dens don't have a set schedule; wrong. Webelos dens in particular tend to be pretty busy in my experience.

 

3. Think about building that long term relationship from a long term perspective. Once our boys were webelos IIs getting ready for cross over, we got a lot of attention from local troops. But we'd been trying to build that relationship for years prior to this with very little luck. Where were these same troops when we asked for Den Chiefs? Why couldn't they ever help us out when we asked for a few scouts to come to our "big" events like the pinewood derby, or even just something as simple as some older boys in uniform to do an impressive flag ceremony? Where were the troops when we were looking for scouting for food partners? How come I couldn't drum up any interest in doing a joint campfire or any other event besides a "canned" webelos recruiting event? Wonderful as those events are, they don't build long term relationships because they are one-time deals.

 

Along these lines, I have to agree with Dan. The troops that view cub packs as "feeders" only tend to also view recruitment as something that happens with webelos II dens between November and February. The rest of the time, they're MIA from the pack scene. Not surprisingly, cub leaders don't appreciate that very much.

 

And then, there are some things I wish more cub packs would do too.

 

1. Encourage the boys to get to know several troops in town and not just one. Families can't make a serious choice if they don't know what the options are and no pack has an obligation to serve as "feeders" for any particular troop, no matter what the history is.

 

2. Encourage Webelos boys to do an SM conference with the troop that they plan to cross into. I know that they can do the SM conf. with any troop for the AoL, with no obligations to join. But it makes sense that they'd do it with the troop they plan to join, even if that means that they end up doing more than one SM conf.

 

3. Be up front with troops in terms of where the boys are likely to go. Troops would rather know in advance that Johnny is on the fence and may join a different troop (or quit) than find out at the cross over ceremony.

 

I'm glad your story had a "happy" ending to it. But you know, I would also encourage you and your troop committee to go back and reconsider your approach to recruitment. What kind of relationship do you have with this pack beyond recruiting time? What kind of relationship would current pack leaders like to have? Do these match? Could you do more?

 

Lisa'bob

[firecrafter]

Good insight Lisabob!

I think having one ASM or other contact person dedicated to new scouts is vital! A good Troop Guide can also be a great assent.

Our group does not "actively" recruit and is the fastest growing Troop in our district. We do however maintain an ongoing relationship with cubscout groups in our area by helping with events like Pinewood Derby, uniform inspections, and the Yukon, to name a few.

 

Due to poor organization by Den Leaders, our Scouts have been reluctant to serve as Den Chiefs. In the past we had several Den Leaders who would frequently cancel meetings without informing the Den Chief. This happened repeatedly until the Scouts gave up in frustration. With new Cubscout leaders in place, we are trying to generate interest in this area again.

 

Sharing schedule information is another important area. Both sides could do better at this. We plan for new Scouts to come into the troop in Feb. but sometimes are invited to attend a Blue & Gold Banquet the day before! We scramble to attend because it's important to the boys. This year we sent Leaders and Scouts to attend 10 crossover ceremonies, and those boys have yet to commit to a specific troop. Is that typical?

Giving advance notice is a problem that affects both Boyscouts & Cubscouts. I'd like to see everyone do better in that area. Again, communication between the groups is so important.

 

Overall, I think our group has done well in not getting involved in the politics of Scouting (believe me, some have tried). I credit the CC and SM with this. They seem to be concerned with running a quality program and not so much with adding to our numbers. The attitude is if we do things with excellence people will notice. So far it seems to be working.

 

firecrafter

[Spiney Norman]

This year our troop had a definite eye opener. Our feeder pack's WII leader/CM informed us that he was taking his boy's Troop shopping, mainly to the troop that he was affiliated with in a neighboring town as a youth. The troop committee thought nothing of this and even encouraged him. However, after hearing of their second and third visits to this troop our committee and SM became a little nervous.

 

We thought that we had always had good relations with the pack. We always staged a WII campout for them, even rescheduling one weekend after a poor showing the first time around. Ths adults insured that the PLC had an especially well planned and FUN meeting whenever these webelos visited. Even then we weren't sure of if and how many would cross over to our troop.

 

What I think happened here is that due to very poor retention of the prior year's webelos a disconnect between the Pack and Troop occurred. Both the leaders and the boys of the pack and troop no longer had any meaningfull interaction. The parents of the pack were especially concerned because they perceived the adult leaders of the troop to be a bunch of old fogeys. Our troop retains quite a few adult leaders for years even decaades after their sons age out of scouts and go off to college.

 

SO the full court press began. Not for the boys but for the hearts and minds of their parents. We took the time to visit the pack and let me tell you visiting a pack meeting after a couple years of Boy Scouting can give you a headache but quick. We admonished each other at committee meetings to always mingle mingle mingle whenever we had visitors from the pack at any of our events. We needed to get out of our comfort zone, of course we knew that we were marvelous folks, we just never tried hard to convince anyone else we were. Our SM complained once that he felt like college football coach recruiting the best and brightest for his team and he was right.

 

It did pay off though. We have a much closer relationsip with the parents of the pack and tonight the SM and a few other troop leaders, including myself, will be attending the pack's blue and gold and receiving all 9 of their graduating webelos into our troop.

[ASM59]

----------

Dan,

Harsh words, my friend...

Unfortunately you don't know the situation and it turns out that it really does stem from a disgruntled former Scout's mother and what I call "adult politics", but the truth is the truth even if you are too disconnected from the situation to see it. By the way, my use of the term "feeder pack" may be mistaken. I have seen the term used in other threads and thought it was a generic term for the Pack with whom your Troop works and where new scouts, who had been Webelos, come from. So, my appologies if I have misused the term in any way or have offended you with my misuse of it.

----------

 

We are constantly at work with the boys to deliver a quality program in our Troop. We have outings every month, PLC meetings every month, weekly meetings, and organized service work for our CO and a local Christian ministry organization. The Troop has been steadily growing over the last 3 years, due in part to several Scouts that have joined without having ever been in Cub Scouting.

 

Our Troop of about 16 active boys (now 22) provides 4 actively participating Den Chiefs to the Pack in our town. We help the Pack with their annual Pine Wood Derby and have always participated in their Blue & Gold Banquet. We have also gone as a "support team" on some of the Packs family campouts; providing our Troop trailer, equipment and some of our Boy Scouts to help with meal preparation.

 

So yes, we have always tried to maintain good Troop relations with the Pack and provide as much help as we can, and for the right reason. Which goes to my point that I made with our Committee; we need to serve (without promise of the reward of new Scouts), we need to follow the Scout Law (be loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind...), stay on the high road...

 

When I say they have seen the light, what I mean is that some of my good friends that opposed me over inviting the Pack on outings have appologized to me and said they were wrong, and acknowledged that they were wrong to feel that way. They did this before the boys decided to join our Troop, so it wasn't that they saw the light only because we receive something in exchange for our offers of service.

 

I have great hope for our committee. I think they have come a long way over the last year in seeing what needs to be done and in the right spirit; the spirit of Love, Service, and Scouting...

 

Thanks again for all your comments...

ASM59

 

[SWScouter]

I'm a Webelos 2 leader who had all 5 boys cross over to Boy Scouts last night. Not one boy is joining the troop chartered to the church that the pack is chartered to. I do feel bad about it, especially since the troop did help the den out. The troop put on a Readyman day for the pack's Webelos, the den visited a troop meeting and also went along on a campout in December. I talked to the troop's CC about it, I don't want to ruin relations between the pack and troop in anyway. He seems to understand and his main concern is that the boys continue in scouting, no matter the troop.

 

The boys in the den are scattered around a large geographic area. My son and I live about 12 miles from the CO (closest Catholic school for my son to attend). All the boys are joining troops closer to where they live than the CO is. That had some bearing on the boys' choices but really, they felt much more welcome at the troops they're joining than the CO's.

 

I'm especially impressed with the troop my son and two other boys joined. The boys were paid attention to and kept involved by the scouts every time they visited. The adults have great rapor with all the boys and their enthusiasm is obvious. Last night at the B&G the troop had a very large contingent there to receive the boys. It really was impressive.

 

I think, why the den chose different troops to join is that they never really felt welcome at the CO's troop. They were at the activities but they weren't really a part of them. The Boy Scouts really didn't include the Webelos. My son was not enthusiastic at all about joining Boy Scouts, but that started to change when he first visited the troop he is joining. Each visit I could tell he was starting to anticipate becoming a Boy Scout.

 

The reason I'm posting this is to give the perspective of a Webelos Leader finding a troop for the Webelos to join instead of a troop recruiting Webelos.

 

SWScouter