Patrol Method older boys with crossover boys?

[gilski]

We have a patrol that does not work well together. The dads of a few of older boys in that patrol wan't to mix them in with new cross-over scouts. So they can become "Trainers" however putting 13 to 14 year olds in with 11 year old boys does not sit well with a few of us. We wanted to split them up into excisting patrols with kids there own age, that have been with them for some time. What to do?

[2Eagle]

There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods. We prefer to keep Scouts together by age for their entire time as Scouts. Older boys don't want to always mix with younger and vice versa. Interests are too different as the age differential increases. Older Scouts don't mind teaching and helping and watching out for younger Scouts but they all prefer to camp, cook, etc. by age groups. Most of the boys go to school together and have known each other all their lives. Mixing, especially if redone annually, for example, causes a lot of unnecessary turmoil. We also have six sets of brothers and keeping them separated by age has definite advantages. Either way can be made to work, we just prefer segregation by age.

[Beavah]

Yah, Gilski.

 

Our troop, unlike 2Eagle's, has "vertical" or age-mixed patrols, and does admit new boys into existing patrols. We like it a lot, but it comes with a whole troop culture, ethic, and commitment.

 

I would never recommend you do that in the situation you are suggesting. Putting new boys with boys who don't work well together at best will only get you a bunch of new boys who now act like the ones who don't work well together. At worst, you'll lose 'em or even get them hurt.

 

Go with Plan B.

[AvidSM]

Beavah - How many of the new scout in your mixed patrols get elected as patrol leaders? How does your Troop Guide function with the new boys spread across patrols?

 

A patrol formed from new boys gives at least one boy a chance to be a leader. And, it gives a chance for the Troop Guide to give advice to that new leader, which is one of his main duties.

[SR540Beaver]

We have mixed age patrols and they work well for us. We do however use NSP's for the first 6 to 8 months that boys crossover into the troop. In the past week or two we have crossed over 16 Webelos and will make two patrols out of them. Myself and two other ASM's will work with these boys. I say we will work with them, actually we have four troop guides who will be split two per patrol that will work with them under our oversight. By using this manner, the boys have the comfort of being with other new scouts their age, get to learn the troop and other boys and learn their skills from older (and willing) scouts. Around October, we will integrate them into existing patrols.

 

Just taking new boys and throwing them into a sink or swim situation with older boys that want nothing to do with them will eventually run them off. Find older boys willing to do a POR of troop guide and utilize them to teach a NSP. Let everyone get to know each other slowly and then mix them in down the road.

[Kudu]

Before a man named William Hillcourt brought the Patrol System with him from Denmark, the BSA experts published official "Grouping Standards" by which the "Scout Master" arbitrarily divided the Troop into Patrols,

 

If height is used, boys of fifty-six and a half inches in height and classifying under ninety pounds in weight, might be grouped together. Also boys of sixty-three inches in height and coming within the one hundred and ten pound weight.

 

Presumably loyal BSA Scouters carried tape measures with them to be sure that a Scout didn't break official BSA policy by remaining in his Patrol when he grew from fifty-six and a half inches to fifty-seven inches :-/

 

From your description it sounds like your new Scouts have been in the Troop long enough to have some idea of what the different Patrols are like. If you are not using a "New Scout Patrol (NSP)," has anyone asked them which Patrol they would like to join?

 

We use both methods: some Patrols are all the same age and some are mixed, but we never break up the NSP. All things being equal, older boys don't always want to associate with younger boys.

 

For what it is worth, I have found that they are more interested in recruiting younger Scouts into their Patrols when you convince the PLC to do away with the idea that Patrol contests need to be "fair."

 

For instance, if you play a game like dodge ball at your weekly meetings, why do the sides need to be even? Play by Patrols even if only a couple of Scouts from a Patrol show up. In fact we sometimes pit the entire Troop against a Patrol of only three or four older Scouts :-/

 

We also use the same technique when I recruit a dozen Scouts into the Troop at one time, pitting the new Scouts' Patrol against the entire Troop for at least one game to give them an idea that their Patrol is a team. It breaks the ice to see that the older Scouts are not invincible.

 

But I digress :-)

 

Kudu

 

[Eamonn]

The NSP can and does work.

But ....

Back home in the UK Cubs left the pack when they were 11 years old. (Way back when I moved from the Pack to the Troop we had the Leaping Wolf Badge.) When I was Scoutmaster we had what was known as the Link Badge. Normally we would get a couple of little fellows who were close to being about 10 1/2 years old and they would visit the Troop attend a few meetings and cover the requirements of the Badge.

The PLC would meet and decide which Patrol they went into.

Mixed age patrols worked well for us. In many ways it helped to promote Patrol spirit, even after Scouts moved up to the Venture Unit (Yes unit) they still felt that as well as being a member of the 17th they were also very much a Panther or a Kestrel or whatever Patrol they had been in.

Of course having the Scout program end at age 16 made a difference as well.

Eamonn.

[AvidSM]

The purpose of having patrols in a Troop is to form tight cliques of 6-8 boys. Boys tend to work best in this type of grouping. Having the boys start together in one patrol and keeping them together gives them the best chance of forming that tight group. This is the foundation of the patrol method.

 

Why would you throw new boys into an existing patrol with older boys who have their own established clique? Or, why would you break up a new patrol, after they have had a chance to form a cohesive group after 6-8 months?

 

By saying mixed patrols "work well" - what does that mean? Do they work well for the adult leaders because they don't have to deal with a disfunctional patrol of new scouts?

 

How do you realize the advantages of the patrol method with mixed patrols?

[SR540Beaver]

Avid,

 

Let's say you have 8 Webelos crossover and form a NSP and you decide to keep them together as they age. By the end of the first year, you have 2 quit and 1 that shows up occasionally. You now have 5 in your patrol. Another year passes and you have 1 that quits, leaving you with 4 in your patrol. These boys are probably at least Star by now and possibly 14 or close to it. Given another year, how many will you still have? Do you maintain their patrol at 2 or 3 members? Do you merge them with another patrol of the same age? What if they were the only NSP when they joined and there are no more boys their age. Eventually you will end up with mixed patrols out of necessity or have a multitude of patrols with 2 or 3 members in them. By keeping the patrols age specific, you set up a division where older boys want nothing to do with younger boys. We left the troop we crossed over to for this specific reason. The older boys and some of their parents resented having all of these little kids mess up their plans for higher adventur trips and having to teach new boys. They have since rethought their approach when they FINALLY realized that their troop would shortly die with no new scouts. Where you have a troop with mixed patrols, the culture is one where the older boys were not treated in a hands off fashion as new scouts and know that it is their turn to give back what they got.

 

What I mean by mixed patrols "working" for us is this. Hazing and harrasment by older scouts is virtually no-existant because the older scouts have learned by example that they have an obligation to new scouts. The new boys are eventually adopted out of their NSP to an existing patrol with open arms by the boys ranging in age from 11 or 12 up to 17. The younger scouts are able to grow and contribute up to their ability while the older scouts encourage and teach along the way. I know that many troops do not function this way, but ours honestly does. We have created the culture because we believe it is the best way to operate. We could take the approach that we should keep them separate because they don't want to mix and everyone will be happier. But the you just have boys filling POR offices rather than actually providing leadership in one on one situations.

 

Word gets around. We run about 40 boys at troop meetings. We always recruit at least one NSP per year. This year we have crossed over 16 boys. We had 5 prospects visit our troop last night. We are quickly approaching our gear limit and I could see where we may put a limit on new boys based on equipment only. What is the attraction? Boy led and mixed age patrols.

[Lynda J]

How is a new boy supposed to learn how to be a partol leader unless he sees someone doing it.

Our patrols are mixed. This last elections Kevin was elected PL for his patrol for the second time. The patrol has two new Scouts in it. He slected one of them as the APL. His thinking was that working together he passes his knowledge on to the APL. Them next elections this Scout is ready to be a PL.

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>Having the boys start together in one patrol and keeping them together gives them the best chance of forming that tight group. This is the foundation of the patrol method.

[Kudu]

 

We don't have a "feeder Pack," so I recruit in the public schools where Scouts usually join because they want to go camping with their friends. If after a year the NSP is functioning as a tightly bonded Patrol of best friends, then I don't break them up because such a group is the very definition of the Patrol Method!

 

We also have mixed-aged Patrols. The advantages are:

 

1. Mixed Patrols are usually a result of the older Scouts recruiting younger brothers and their friends. So these different-aged Scouts are already accustomed to playing street football and other activities together despite their differences in age. Incidentally, we don't usually have a problem with brothers in the same Patrol.

 

2. These younger Scouts are completely immersed among older role models who know how to camp.

 

3. As the Scouts get older, they can't always make it to campouts due to jobs, sports, and other commitments. Mixed-aged Patrols insure a greater turn-out at campouts, and the survival of the Patrol.

 

4. Ideally, it is the Patrol Leader who teaches and signs off requirements. Ideally, this is the natural result of of a good camping program. Ideally :-)

 

Kudu

 

 

[Pint]

Out of curiosity, whats the age range of Scouts in the USA, and whats the (rough) average age of a patrol leader?

 

[acco40]

Boy Scouts are by necessity, under the age of 18 (considered adult at 18 for Boy Scouts) and over the age of 10. However, those boys under the age of 11 must have either completed the 5th grade or earned the AOL.

 

As for the average age of a patrol leader - well technically, even a NSP Scout can be a PL (for 30 days) at the age of 10. For troops that use "mixed" patrols, obviously the age is higher.

[FScouter]

I recently attended our district awards banquet. I went with some Scouting friends and we were all looking forward to a good time. When we arrived, we were dismayed to see that the event committee had decided to assign guests to specific tables of 8 people. There was a chart on the wall listing names and table assignments. The people at the tables were mixed according to the logic of the committee.

 

I wanted to sit with my friends at our own table and invite others to join us. But the adult dinner committee had already decided that a pre-assigned seating arrangement was best, and we all had to sit at our assigned places. I suppose that the committee had very good reasons for doing this, and that we are better for it, but several guests simply did not like being told who they had to sit next to.

 

Is it really much different in Boy Scout patrols? There are lots of persuasive reasons for the adult leaders to assign boys to patrols. But boys dont join a troop to learn skills from older boys, or to observe other boy leaders, or fill an empty slot. They join to be with their friends and do fun things. How can a boy recruit his friend to join Scouting and do stuff together if some adult then assigns the new recruit to a patrol where he has no friends?

 

Sometimes I think we adult leaders try too hard to figure out the best ways.