Behavior That Warrents Expulsion from Troop?

[firecrafter]

This is BOY SCOUTS for cryin'out loud!!! How sad that the victim is the one who left his troop (although he is probably better off)!

As a parent I would say either the offender goes, or my boys go! I count on the leaders in my sons' troop to keep them as safe as possible. Allowing a scout who has behaved in such a way to remain would not be my idea of safety.

Seems the adults often worry about the one boy who "has problems" at the expense of all the other boys in the troop. Why do the scouts that behave themselves deserve any less than the best we have to offer?

We had an incident where a long time scout, a good kid, never a problem, was being harrassed by a new scout. Found out the new guy has a history of harrassing this scout at school as well. Long time scout wanted to quit the troop because it meant more of what he got at school. SM told new guy he had to behave and he hasn't been back. Personally I think it's for the best.

We have another scout who has been a continual behavior problem, once deliberately hitting an ASM in the face with a ball. He was put on 6 months probation for that incident. It made no difference whatsoever in his attitude.

 

I have been active in BSA for 10 years. I've seen it do a lot of good, but never, have I seen scouting turn a boy around who had serious problems. I agree with EagleinKY "But, it's as simple as this. We're volunteers. We're not psychiatrists, police officers or wardens. We are out there to have fun and help kids grow and succeed."

 

We need to do what we can for boys who need/want help, but remember the other boys in the troop as well. It's their troop too!

firecrafter

 

[LongHaul]

Hereajo,

A short while back we had a thread about the Grand Teton Council which revealed an incidence of ongoing child abuse and assault. Boys reported infractions and leaders relayed information and council staff ignored allegations. Boys were repeatedly put at risk and adults in positions of responsibility failed to protect the boys. Going to another troop solves the problem for the victim for right now but it ignores the real problem. If you and every other adult that knows about this, including the victims parents, do nothing to bring this incident to the attention of the local council SE and the local authorities where the incident took place all of you must consider yourselves as 1. having failed the victim. 2. having failed any future victims. 3. having as much as told the offending scout that he is above the law. Injustice can only survive if decent people allow it. What happens when both of these scouts meet again at the Brotherhood Campout and the offending scout ups the anti? Scream shout and jump up and down waving your arms till justice is served and Scouts are safe to be Scouts.

LongHaul

 

[Zahnada]

"The victim feared for his saftey when the gun was pointed at him."

 

That was really all the information I needed. At this point, the action goes beyond "boys will be boys" and into "this boy is trouble." I think it's safe to assume that the action was taken for the purpose of striking fear into his victim. This is just wrong and has no place in Boy Scouts.

 

As Eamonn said, scouting is a "controlled risk." This boy obviously appears out of control (from what I've read) and has no place in scouting.

 

I apologize if it previously appeared I was taking the assailant's side. I wanted to make sure he was fairly represented. But that one line at the top is all the information I need to know to determine this boy's character.

[Lisabob]

This happened at an OA event. The OA is an honor society. Quite aside from whatever the troop decides to do, shouldn't the OA chapter be doing something about this too? I thought OA youth were supposed to be role models and that membership is a privilege and honor, not a right. That ought to mean something.

 

Lisa'bob

[Beavah]

Yah, hearjo, that helps.

 

In such circumstances, your first priority is protecting the program for all da boys, and re-establishin' some control. The offending boy has to go.

 

When programs are otherwise very healthy and stable, their community has the ability to "absorb" a behavioral incident like this with suspension, probation, and forgiveness, if that's called for.

 

But if the program is not that stable and has gotten out of control in the way you describe, this incident has to become a sign to parents and boys of your renewed resolve to protect kids.

 

[Scoutndad]

Lisabob stole my thunder about this occurring at an OA ordeal...nevertheless,

 

Devil's advocate or not, if the boy was able to point a "gun" at another boy (scout or not), no quarter asked or granted. Expel the boy immediately and as an earlier message suggested, contact the local authorities (including the necessary scout execs) especially if this appears to be a family trait...any ideas if the "victim" actually stood up for himself and had the "bully" go looking for his "piece" to even the score...no way...BTW, I'm guessing that using an airsoft gun to commit a felony is still a felony even if it is not a "real" gun...and Scouts to boot...man

 

SR540...I hate to admit it, but I laughed when you said you shot yourself...I would have done the same thing...not too bright, but you get immediate results...

[klcbaskets]

As the mom of the victim in this thread I would like to say thanks to all of you for your support that we are doing the right thing in making waves. I am sad to say that in this troop it has been the "policy" that "boys will be boys" and don't talk about it when un-Boy Scout behavior occurs. They never want to make reports when necessary. So when we bring up stuff they say nothing has been documented so we have to treat this like it is the first offense. I stopped attending troop meeting because I and my husband were in the minority for trying to control behavior and our boys(we have 2 in the troop) were teased because of it. After this event occurred, by husband was out of town and I asked the troop leaders to let me know in writing what they were going to do to ensure the safety of my boys at troop meetings, whether I attended or not. I have yet to receive an answer. So we have not attended any more meetings. The OA has been informed of the incident and we are wating to hear what they will do. The charter org pastor, rep, troop leaders and offenders family is meeting to determine what should happen. Your input here will help the pastor (new to scouts and our church) to see things in the big picture. We are leaving the troop and looking for a new one in the area and the boys seem to be happy with that decision. But we are concerned for those left behind and will keep waving the flag on inappropriate behavior, we feel it is our duty to do so as we are Christians and care about all children. Thank you for allowing us a voice and a place to learn more about how other troops handle these types of issues.

[Scoutndad]

Good luck KLC...glad to hear your son still has faith in scouting. It sounds as if one of your leaders is trying to do the right thing.

Scoutndad

[John-in-KC]

While I continue to counsel doing things right...

 

Doing things right does mean reporting allegations of abuse to the local Scout Executive. Our professionals have obligations to report to authorities and initiate the needed investigations.

 

I apologize to all, including klcbaskets as the Mom. When I made my first post, I should have been saying go to Scout Executive, period.

[SR540Beaver]

In YP cases, even if there is doubt, do the right thing and report. Me and a fellow ASM from our home troop served as ASM's for one of our Jambo troops. when we were touring DC before attending Jambo, it was brought to our attention by some of our senior boy leadership that one of the scouts said he was physically abused (not sexually) by his step father. Our "dilemma" was that the boy was from our home troop and his step father was our SM and friend. Talk about a sick feeling in the pit of your stomach. We "knew" it wasn't true, but we couldn't ignore it. Our SM and his wife are very dedicated and active Christians. They are dedicated scoutes who also work at the district and council level. They are highly respected. Their son is a good kid, but he is the poster child for ADHD and tends to drive most people nuts. We felt that he was saying what he said for attention as it fit his character. Regardless, it had to be reported. Luckily, our Jambo SM took over, cut us out of the loop because of our relationship and called back home to report it to the council SE. I have no idea what happened after that. The boy and his parents are still deeply involved in scouting, so I have a feeling that any investigation turned up nothing. Even when there is doubt, REPORT! It is your obligation as a scouter.

[LongHaul]

Klcbaskets,

I encourage you not to allow this to be swept under the rug. Ive been Scoutmaster of our troop for over 10 years, with time off to get married and start a family I still have over 30 years of registered association with the Scouting program. I say this to assure you I am not new to this type of behavior or the Scouting Program. Your sons may move to another troop but the possibility of them being in a position to be assaulted by the offending youth still exists. Camporees, Council summer program, Order of the Arrow Fellowships. Bullies return to the easy targets. My advice is to write a letter describing what occurred and list names. List everyone who was in a position to see first hand what occurred both youth and adult, especially the adult who witnessed the incident with the air pistol. Send copies to the Scout Executive in your council, your District Executive and your District Director if you have one. Send or deliver a copy to the Chartered Organization Head (sometimes referred to as the Executive Officer) send a copy to your Chartered Organization Representative, send a copy to your Troop Committee Chairperson, send a copy to your Scoutmaster. This will, in this case at least establish the documentation which seems to be an issue. Boys will be Boys is not a phrase which can be found in any Nationally designed training material. You will however find the phrases Safe Haven and Controlled Risk along with Qualified Adult Supervision and Discipline.

LongHaul

 

[Aquila calva]

Questions for hereajo and/or klcbaskets, regarding these incidents. What were the positions of the parents of the offender? How did they react to these incidents? Apparently their car was in the parking lot at an OA function indicating they were at the event. Are they registered leaders in the troop? One post says:

 

The airsoft gun was in the offenders parents car in the parking lot of the scout camp. The gun was pointed at the victim in the parking lot of the scout camp. The victim feared for his saftey when the gun was pointed at him. There has been trouble with the offender and siblings before

 

Is the offenders family enmeshed in the troop? He has siblings in the troop. When a scout unit becomes the safe-haven for bullies, youth or adult, the whole Scouting organization suffers. Has this unit become a safe-haven for bullies, young and old?

 

Report as LongHaul outlines above.

 

[theysawyoucomin']

As the father of a fairly well behaved young Scout, I'm a Wood badger that is an active committee member:

 

If my kid was the victim in this case the Troop would be making a choice between my kid and the youthful offender.

 

If this kid wasn't gone instantly I'd vote with my feet and find a new home.

 

Nothing that was going on in this boy's life short of a brain tumor that was pushing on all the wrong parts of his brain can excuse his behavior.

 

This goes waaaaaaay beyond the "benefit of the doubt".

 

Can him and make sure the DE and Scoutmasters in the general vicinity know what they could be signing up.

 

P.S. I am very pro-gun, pro second ammendment. The only civil right that guarantees all the rest.

[Prairie_Scouter]

>P.S. I am very pro-gun, pro second ammendment. The only civil right >that guarantees all the rest.

 

Uh, oh, are we going to start up THAT discussion again?

 

How does that argument go again? Something like "we can only be safe knowing that we all have the ability to blow each other's brains out"?

[Backwoods]

The one facet of this thread that I think should be discussed a little more fully is that this incident demonstrates a major lack of leadership and guidance. How on earth did pellet-gun boy end up being invited to an OA ordeal? Both the adult leaders of the Troop and the boy leadership are culpable in this situation. "Boys will be boys" is not license for assault, harrassment, or threats of bodily harm. Not only should the Troop leadership take immediate action, but I would encourage the Parents to review their rights to press criminal charges.

 

I actually happen to be a psychologist who is also a scouter, and a gun owner. The first rule of firearms handling that we teach has to do with treating all firearms as if they are real and live. It was the first thing that I learned and the first thing I would wager that each and every one of us reviewing this post learned. Pointing any fiream at another is a "thou shalt not" in firearms safety. It was a significant threatening gesture.

 

One of the facts of bullying behavior is that bullies escalate. Period. Bullies tend to up the anti, from teasing, to exclusion, to minor physical violence, to causing significant injury. If this behavior is what is meant by "boys will be boys", the Troop is allowing boys to practice assaulting other boys and to become more skillful bullies. Not exactly what B-P had in mind I'd wager. I would bet that the adult leaders in the Troop are not BSA trained or not trained well.

 

In my mind this incident is a symptom of a very poorly run unit that needs imediate intervention. If I were the parent of the boy threatend, I would send a formal letter of complaint to the head of the chartering organization and to the local Council Executive. I would ask that the Troop's leadership, supervision, and training be reviewed. I would also move my boy to another unit imediately. Do not stop, do not pass go. In the letter you should note that this behavior is the kind of behavior that makes for sensational news. I would be carefull to note that I was not making the statement as a threat but to illustrate that scouts acting like gang members makes for a very dramatic contrast, something that news organizations love. Emphasize the values that you as a parent believe in and encourage you to continue to try to salvage your child's scouting experience.

 

Finally, for the leader (or scout?) who initiated this post you have a choice to make. Either work your tail off to fix what has become broken, or move yourself to a different unit. The Troop needs to realign its expectations. Scouting was not begun so that boys could be boys, scouting was begun out of concern that the moral fiber of young men was not being attended to and that nations fail because they do not ask their children to aspire to greatness. In reading the Scout Law, Oath, and Promise I find nothing about not asking boys to make an effort to change. On the contrary, scouting is about making an effort, about meeting challenges.

 

Finally remember this, every incident of major school violence in the past decade or so began with bullying. The end result was devastating for the communities that experienced these tragedies, as well as for our country. In each case clear and imediate actrions were not taken in time to avert tragedy. I would also not that in many of those cases people excused their inaction with the statement that they just thought "boys would be boys." As parents our duty is to protect our children. As adults it is our duty to stop and correct problem behavior wherever we see it. And ultimately, as scouters it is our duty to ask boys to aspire to greatness.