Behavior That Warrents Expulsion from Troop?

[EagleInKY]

" Had a youth in the troop that picked fights with anyone. He even would hit adults from behind."

 

srisom, I had a similar experience. This scout verbally abused me (SM) on several occasions. Physical violence against another scout only happened once. After a very public, profanity-laden tirade at a scout meeting (aimed at me and the PLC), I called the mom and asked him to leave. He's now with another troop, but I don't think his attitude is any better. All I can say is to echo scoutingagain's comment:

 

"The unit has since run much smoother and frankly has been more fun. "

[Trevorum]

In my opinion, this behavior is serious and triggers Youth Protection. If the behavior occurred during a scouting activity, I would have called the Scout Executive immediately. If it had occurred elsewhere, I would have called the appropriate local authorities.

[Zahnada]

So, he pointed an "airsoft" pistol?

 

From my knowledge of airsoft, it's basically a bb-gun that shoots soft, rubber pellets. The main use of the gun is to get teams together and shoot each other in some sort of capture the flag game. It's much like paintball except it hurts a lot less. So, to call this "a weapon" might be extreme.

 

Don't get me wrong. An airsoft pistol has no place on a scout outing and this needs to be dealt with seriously.

 

I just want everyone to realize that airsoft is not the same as an actual pellet gun. If it were an actual pellet gun, or if he pulled a knife, then that kid would be gone from my troop instantly.

 

So, in this case, I would definitely need more information before determining a punishment. Although, I have to say, the boy in question sounds like a problem child that may not have a place in scouting anyway.

[SR540Beaver]

Zahnada,

 

Don't kid yourself. My son owns several airsoft guns and yes he has played capture the flag with other neighborhood kids with them. He always wears eye protection. From some distance, I doubt they hurt much. However, one day I picked his up and wondered how powerful they were. Like an idiot, I shot myself in the palm of my hand from a few inches away. Let me assure you that while it didn't break the skin, it left a mark and hurt for quite a while. An airsoft gun could easily put an eye out at close enough range.

 

Toy or not, pointing a "weapon" at another person is a major no-no. Especially after cursing at them and threatening them. I'll go along with the person who said that this is strike one and two and maybe two and a half.....unless the scout has a history. Then it would be strike three. I'm a dedicated scouter, but life is too short to sacrifice the safety of the troop for one problem child.

[Eagle Foot]

I think you have to reflect on his past behavior...has he always bullied other boys? If the answer is yes he should have been called on the carpet at that time. He's just been testing the radar to see where it's set. Unfortunantly sometimes we turn the radar off to avoid conflict.

 

Suspension for 60 days is ok, but in order to return he must appear before the troop committee with his parants and explain why he should be allowed to stay in the troop.

 

Just a thought on what I have done...the scout I did this with you ask?

 

He showed up at the committee meeting and did explain why hitting, throughing sticks, and rocks was really ok...it's just fun, if someone got hurt they need to learn to shake it off.

 

The committee terminated is inrolement with the troop and formally sent a letter to his parents. You are better off sometimes, being a member of a troop is by inventation anyway.

 

(edited by Eagle Foot)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

Last summer we had an eleven year old who had been with the troop eight months. The troop was assisting with a Cub Pack overnight, and everyone was warned to be on their best behavior.

 

This boy (1) stole $30 from his tent mate (2) pushed a much larger Scout when he was off balance sending him sprawling in what might have been an injury and (3) sprayed a Cub Scout with deoderant. Pretty busy kid.

 

 

The Scoutmaster and ASM called in the father and discussed the problems. The SM suspended the boy for 30 days.

 

Nothing but venial sins since then.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[Zahnada]

Hey SR540Beaver,

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not justifying or defending the behavior. Airsoft guns, just like paintball guns, have no place on a scout outing. And most certainly, the things can put out an eye.

 

But I did want to clear things up for the other readers that an airsoft gun is not the same as a pellet gun. I know when I originally read the first post, I thought it was describing a pellet gun. I flipped out. But when I reread "airsoft gun", suddenly, the scenerio became more believable (although definitely not excuseable).

 

Having an understanding of the "weapon" just brings up other questions. Like, how far away did this occur? Were they wearing hats and jackets so it probably wouldn't have hurt?

 

Although inappropriate, airsoft is just on a different level in my mind than other weapons. If I had to rank them in order of severity:

 

Squirt Gun

Nerf Gun

Airsoft Gun

Paintball Gun

BB Gun

Gun

 

But still, don't misunderstand me to think that I would turn a blind eye to this behavior myself. Those things at close range and on bare skin can really sting.

[OldGreyEagle]

let me see, I'm a kid getting bullied by a lout. he is cursing at me and saying he will shoot me. Then within an hour he is pointing what I perceive to be a pistol at me, am I not pertrified?

 

I looked up Airsoft pellet guns on the net, they look really neat, and realistic. So you have an off duty Sheriff's deputy at the place the bullying going on, maybe you are at a state park, a city park or the church that sponsors your troop. The deputy always carries his revolver and isnt part of the troop, all he sees is a pistol pointed at a youth. The cop pulls his pistol and yells freeze, the kid turns, sees the cop, thinks its all fun and points the pellet gun at the cop, what happens next? Its dark, no one can see well, what then?

 

This is serious, much would have to be discussed begore the scout comes back

[CalicoPenn]

Which kid do you want to lose? The kid who pointed the gun or the kid who was bullied and had a gun pointed at him.

 

If I were the kid who had the gun pointed at him and you told me that you were going to give Billy a second chance because it was only an air-soft gun, I would leave your troop, likely leave scouting, and never allow my children to even consider joining scouting in the future.

 

It's not often I consider zero-tolerance to be a guiding principle - this is one of those rare instances. The boy that pointed the gun should be gone, period, no discussion. He shouldn't have had a "gun" at a scouting event in the first place (that, to me, is a 30 day suspension) - pointing the gun after an altercation brings it to a whole new level. Not only would that boy be gone, he would have been escorted home in a police car - zero tolerance.

 

OGE makes a great point - had it been a police officer or ranger that boy pointed a gun at, he could easily be dead now - they have no tolerance for guns of any kind pointed at them and are trained to shoot at the body mass.

 

CalicoPenn

[Zahnada]

Well, it's a good thing there wasn't a police officer nearby. Bringing such a "toy" or "weapon" on a scout outing is idiotic.

 

However, I will continue to play a little Devil's Advocate here.

 

The original question of the thread is "Behavior that warrents expulsion from troop?"

 

What I am saying is that I do not have enough information to answer that original question. I cannot say if this behavior warrants expulsion because it leaves too many questions.

 

If it were a BB gun being used, then there'd be no question. That boy would be gone.

 

And I'll admit, I'm leaning towards saying this boy should be removed from the troop. But I don't know enough to solidly make that statement.

 

My advice to hereajo is this: If you honestly feel this boy compromises your ability to keep the members of your troop safe, then remove him immediately.

 

For the rest of us, it's all just speculation. We don't know who these boys are or what exactly happened. I can imagine a variety of scenerios playing out with the given information. Some scenerios that adhere to what I know are truly ugly and dangerous. Others are fairly harmless. I don't know where reality falls into the continuum that I can construct. So I cannot answer the question.

[Eamonn]

Hi hereajo

Welcome to the forum.

There is a lot of things that come to my mind as I read what you posted.

1/ I agree with all those wise people who said that it just isn't possible to make any sort of a judgment call.

2/ My opinion of these written polices is that they are not worth the paper they are written on!! IMHO We have a great set of rules in the Scout Oath and Law. And the COR can override these things at any time.

3/ Looking at what you said:

"A scout went out of his way to bully another scout"

Where were the leaders? Where was the PL or SPL?

As soon as one Lad starts bullying, he should have been asked to go home.

4/ I'm not a member of the Troop Committee. What happens to the Lad isn't up to me or the Troop Leaders. This is by design left up to the Troop Committee.

We guys who are leaders have the job of delivering the program. We might not agree with what the Troop Committee does, we might not like it, but at the end of the day it is their call and we should abide by what they decide.

I just reread your question about the CO guaranteeing the safety of the Scouts.

My dear Pal Bob White used to correct me when I used the term Safe Haven, it seems that Controlled Risk is the thing to say.

The CO selects the Leaders who they hope will pass on to the Scouts the values found in the Scout Oath and Law. Leaders who will follow the G2SS and not allow hazing and bullying. I like to think that I do my best to keep the youth in my care safe, but I've had my fair share of Lads who have done some really dumb things. I've had the Lads who like to fight first and ask questions later and sad to say I've met adult leaders who I think are questionable.

So the sad thing is that there is risk.

Eamonn.

(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[LongHaul]

Behavior that warrants expulsion from the Troop, Knowingly AND willingly putting your life or the life of another scout in jeopardy. In our Troop that is carved in stone. A couple of cases in point.  In another troop a scout had a Bic lighter that was out of fluid so he threw it in the camp fire.  The residual gas exploded but no one was hurt.  This led to scouts deliberatly throwing lighter into the fire to watch them explode.  Which led over time to scouts using lighters with more and more fluid in them and seeing who would stay closest to the fire the longest becuse there was a delay in the explosion.  Sort of a game of chicken.  Finally a scout tossed a lighter in the fire without letting the others know and another  scout was seriously injured by the explosion.  Where should the line have been drawn?  When should the "tosser" have been expelled?   I had a scout that was a foster child to some excellent parents. His birth parents were beyond description here. Both this boy and his older brother had social problems and required a lot of latitude while they worked through their adjustment to normal life. A parent or adult always came on campouts with the boys but as we all know unless you handcuff the kid to you there is a time delay between observation and intervention. The end for the younger brother came when he brought a can of lighter fluid on a campout and used it to douse his arm and set himself on fire! He quickly pulled the light jacket he was wearing over the arm and extinguished it with out damage. Investigation found that this was a stunt performed on a TV program called Stupid Human Tricks. The Committee and I felt we had no choice but to revoke his membership, we couldnt assume the liability. He is the only boy ever to be asked to leave our troop.

      In the case hereajo presents I would first have to know if the presents of the pistol was known to leadership before the boy pointed it at the victim. Was the offending scout permitted to have the weapon or did he bring it along in violation of troop policy. We need to establish were we start counting the infractions committed. Possession of a pistol on a campout. Verbal assault. Physical assault. Bullying another scout. Use of profanity. Use of profanity directed at another scout. The first three could actually fall under Youth Protection and would therefore have to be reported to the SE if not the local authorities. Depending on the local laws where the offense took place possession of the gun, brandishing of the gun, physical assault committed with the gun could be criminal offenses and concealment of the incident from the authorities or in some jurisdictions failure to disclose and report the incident could make all the adults involved criminally and civilly liable. To what extent can we allow a scout to jeopardize our ability to deliver program to the group as a whole. Do we draw the line after the gun goes off and kills a scout or before? Depends on whether we allowed him to have the gun in the first place.

 LongHaul

[fotoscout]

There should be no question here, if this happened in the workplace the individual would be fired. Some behaviors are simply not to be tolerated. This boy apparently left the area and then returned with a fire arm...albetit a very realistic looking pellet gun. This boy should have had his membership yanked immediately.

 

Would you have wanted to be the boy on the barrel end of that gun?

 

Youth protection intervention, and a report to the local authorities. Counseling for all the leaders and parents of the Troop along with some type of Council probation for the incredibly incompetent lack of immediate response to this situation.

 

The Charter Organization "owns" the unit. They can override any decision the committee makes. In the extreme, which I believe that this falls into, the CO can drop the charter as a display of no confidence with the Committee and Leadership.

 

On the scale of things, this is way off the chart and requires action NOW. A boy that's out of control and leaders that don't know where to draw the line. I hope the CO removes the Committee, or drops the Charter. These people are an accident waiting to happen. What other judgmental errors are they capable of??

 

(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

[Beth]

We had a similar incident in our troop three years ago only the weapon was a large knife. The scout being assulted parents' are both deputy's for the local sheriff which could have turned real ugly. What worked well for everyone involved was the offending youth had to attended and pass anger management classes, wrote a sincere letter of apology to the troop, the parents and the youth and wasn't allowed to attend any troop activity including meetings until he passed the class and received a letter of clearance that he was not a threat to others. The youth had a hard time upon returning to the troop accepting that the adults let the past go. He told me once he had never experienced the forgiveness that the troop offered and didn't trust that the adults could put it the incident behind them. He has turned out to be a wonderful asset to the troop.

[hereajo]

As an update. The incident happened at an OA Ordeal Campout. The airsoft gun was in the offenders parents car in the parking lot of the scout camp. The gun was pointed at the victim in the parking lot of the scout camp. The victim feared for his saftey when the gun was pointed at him. There has been trouble with the offender and siblings before (lighter in the fire and others), but no one wants to report things (the old boys will be boys excuse).

 

I have asked why no other scouts or adults stepped in to stop the abuse and no answer was given.

 

It appears to me the tolerance for bullying, profanity and bad behavior are out of control and have left the scouts thinking that this behavior is just boys being boys.

 

What if the next time it is a real gun? I think the time to draw the line is before someone is seriously hurt.

 

 

The victim is leaving the troop to join one that holds to the scout oath and law and whose adults will stand up and enforce the guide to safe scouting. I have no doubt he will become a fine eagle scout in the future.