Setiing Limits

[firecrafter]

It seems that the other two troops in our town have bitten the proverbial dust. They did not recharter this year. One, the oldest troop in town, has been going downhill for years. It was expected. The other, a very vital, but church focused group, has decided not to continue. At our troop's committee meeting we were discussing the possiblity of setting limits on the number of new scouts we would be able to accept, since we are now "the only game in town". The time may come when we realistically do not have enough reliable adult help to add large numbers to the troop. Key word, RELIABLE. It has always been the policy in this troop, not to accept "warm bodies" as leaders. I, for one, have no problem with the idea of limiting the number of new scouts to what we can handle with the help available. Of course as we add leaders we can add more Scouts. Other parents acted like the idea of setting limits was outrageous.

It seems pretty crappy to me to expect the SM & ASM's to stretch themselves beyond what they can humanly do... tell them how many boys they will accept into the program, how much time they will give up, and how the program should be run, yet there are always those parents/leaders who do just that. We have some good men leading, I don't want to burn our them out. It was Abe Lincoln who said "Those who have a heart to help, have the right to criticize". I couldn't agree more.

I'm wondering if anyone has had experiences with setting limits on troop size, either bad or good. Thanks!

firecrafter

That should read "Setting Limits"... lol(This message has been edited by firecrafter)

[Eamonn]

While I don't think anyone is going to do any arm twisting, in order to make the Troop take on membership that it feels would be unmanageable.

I am a little bewildered.

How many Scouts do you think would want to join if you went with a "Come on down" open door policy?

It would seem to me that one sure way of not attracting new leaders would be to turn Scouts away.

While I don't want to sound unkind, please believe me when I say that each and every unit goes through peaks and valleys. So while the Troop might well be riding the crest of the wave today, the time will come when it will be down in the valley.

The only sure way that I know of delaying the slump is to keep plugging away on membership.

It would seem to me that the Troop has a golden opportunity to strengthen not only the number of youth served (Which is why we do this in the first place.) But to reach out to a new set of adults who can be selected to serve as leaders and committee members.

Of course you haven't given very many details. Maybe if you already have 100 Boy Scouts in the Troop, you really can't accept any more?

Having spent some time working on the District level, I know that I would be doing everything that I could to get a new Troop started ASAP and who knows maybe some of the Lads you now have would want to go there?

Eamonn.

[Beavah]

Ages back I believed what Eamonn does - that adult help tends to come in proportion to the boys. Yah always have just barely enough. I still think that's true to an extent. Parent drivers / part time helpers / warm bodies do come in proportion to the kids. But not necessarily high-quality "front line" volunteers of the SM/ASM sort. I've also learned that troops of different sizes need different structures and adult talents. Unless those change, you can add as many kids as you want each year, but you'll end up the same size at the end of the year because kids will drop out. I can't tell you the number of times in our district we've helped a troop with recruiting, gotten a bunch of new kids in, and had that happen.

 

Troops do have natural capacities, eh? Based on der front-line leaders and other things. If you don't set limits up front, it will be self-limiting. Either you set limits up front to make sure every kid in your program gets a great experience, or you let every kid in and the ones who aren't getting a great experience drop out. You have to decide which is more trustworthy, courteous and kind to kids; you also have to consider which is more likely to lead to "adult positive attitudes" vs. "adult burnout."

 

Just like with outing safety, a good leader recognizes his group's limits, and stops before they are exceeded, eh?

 

Time to play helper, partner, & "big brother" to a new startup troop.

 

 

[bourne]

With all due respect to Eamonn, I'm going to gently disagree with his post. There are some very good reasons to set limits on troop size.

 

The biggest that I've noticed over the years is that it depends on what the adult leadership is comfortable with. There are plenty of troops that run with only two active parents and less than a dozen scouts that don't actively recruit, don't seek new leadership, and when all the scouts move on, the troop folds. Since this is scouter.com, I'm sure somebody with more spaghetti on their uniform than me is going to complain that they've "failed in their mission", but the truth is simply that they were running the program in the way that worked for them.

 

I'm involved with a troop of about 40 kids right now. We've been as high as 55, and at the time it was the view of the chartering organization that we wouldn't allow the troop to go much higher than that. The biggest reason being that neither the adult leaders or the chartered org were interested in running a "mega-troop", because the logistics of camping with so many people are absurd and doing so requires fundamental changes to leadership on both the adult and scout side that we weren't willing to make (SM's job would change to just overseeing other ASMs rather than interacting with scouts, etc).

 

We've also had "hiring freezes" a couple times, where we didn't accept new scouts or transfers until Crossover time in May. These were usually due to safety concerns. Having a scout join in the middle of a pretrip sequence just doesn't work.

 

Over the years we've realized that whenever we go over our capacity, we tend to have problems. We have more accidents, trip logistics become more difficult, we also tend to lose scouts because they didn't get the type of attention from their PL and the scouters that they would if we were a smaller program. As it is, it doesn't seem to matter how many new scouts we recruit per year - for these reasons we'll always drop down to around 40 scouts the following year.

 

The bottom line is that every troop has a finite capacity. Exploring the limits is a far better thing to do than to pretend they don't exist.

[SeattlePioneer]

It seems there must be some natural limits to size.

 

The biggest troops are rarely morew than a hundred boys.

 

Has anyone ever heard of how many boys may be in the largest Scout troop in the country?

 

What's the biggest troop you have seen in your district or council?

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[Scouter4321]

We moved from a city where the troop my son was in limited the number of boys to 50. The number was set by the Chartered Organization, who wanted it limited due to the size of the facilities. Brothers of scouts already in the troop and boys who were members of the Chartered Org. were always accepted, however, even if it made the number go over a bit.

 

This troop REQUIRED that with every boy that wanted to join, a parent had to register as an adult leader or as a committee member, and be involved in the troop. Of course, some parents did sign up, pay the fee, and still not participate much, but just having that requirement and having to go through the background checks, etc., tended to naturally limit the number of families who would make that kind of committment. So, only occasionally did the troop go over the number of boys that the CO wished to have. A side benefit was that most of the boys who did join were from families that were strongly committed to scouting.

 

Scouter4321

 

[Sir_Scoutalot]

I guess I'm looking at this from the vantage point of the displaced scouts. Can't tell you how many adults I've worked with that dropped out of the program because their troop shut down or adults did not step up. I remember not getting to participate in Webelos because the den had "too many boys".

 

I'd work with your district and council to identify another organization that might sponsor a unit. In the meantime, look for a way to help keep the displaced kids in scouting.

[GS-CS_leader]

With all due respect to Eamonn, I think losing boys is not the worst case scenario. I think Firecrafter has a legitimate worry about leader burnout. If the leaders burn out, even if they don't go so far as to quit (but that can happen since they are after all *volunteers*), then the one currently healthy troop can go downhill and ALL the boys will lose out.

 

I would also like to point out that communities vary widely, so what worked in one area might not in another. I think Scouters in communities with lots of adult interest, support, and ability, underestimate the problems that those in other areas face. I think those are the ones who tend to think that the "build it and they will come" method works for getting the adult volunteers needed to have a good scouting program. And although I agree with Beavah's comment distinguishing "frontline" volunteers from "warm bodies", I think that even the latter do not always come in the same proportions to the boys. For instance, scouting is not strong in my community. There are less than one tenth the number of Girl Scout troops proportionate to the girl population in my town than in a town less than 10 miles away, and I believe the same holds true for Boy Scout troops. However, I do not think that it is the fault of the people involved, it's just that the demographics are so different. Some examples of factors for adult participation: Are the parents former scouts themselves? Or are they new immigrants with limited or no English ability who not only know nothing about scouting, but cannot help much even as "warm bodies" because it is too difficult to communicate with them? (This is a factor in my community) Are many parents working shift work or more than one job so they aren't free on nights and weekends?

 

Unfortunately, the fact that the other troops failed means that you are more likely to get worse than average adult help from the boys that might come from those troops. Do you know anything about the adults who used to have key roles in the now-defunct troops? Do any of them meet your "reliability" standards, or was that the cause of those troops' problems? If you really think you'll get only boys, but not quality adult volunteers from the ex-troops, I think Beavah's advice to try to help a new startup troop rather than take in all the other scouts is the best idea. That way, at least you can assuage your guilt feelings about not taking them all. Unfortunately, the guilt trip is a highly effective tool that parents who are not willing to put out for their own children use on the leaders who who are by definition the type of person who is willing to do things for others.

[GS-CS_leader]

I just realized that in my previous reply, I got side-tracked on the whole adult help issue.

 

Back to whether or not to limit troop size: I like the Lincoln quote. Seems reasonable to me that the SM and ASMs are the ones who should get the final say on what size troop they are comfortable with since they are the ones who will probably have more work if the troop grows considerably. Parents who object to limiting the size of the troop had either better already be doing a whole lot of work for the troop, or should be asked if they are willing to take up the slack by doing specific tasks (write up a list: chaperoning, filing paperwork,... whatever you can think of) so that your troop is able to function well when enlarged.

 

One problem with limiting troop size is that if you don't take in any new scouts for awhile, your troop is likely to shrink even if only because boys eventually are to old to continue as scouts, but also because of families moving, boys not having time due to more serious sports involvement, etc. As long as you don't take in ANY new boys, you can be "fair" about it. But how do you take in the few that you need just to keep your numbers from shrinking? As tempting as it is, you shouldn't just take the boys and parents that you personally know. You'll create a lot of ill will among the others you exclude. It would indeed be favoritism and discrimination. Since your troop fills its adult leadership positions carefully, rather than with anyone who volunteers, it would not be nice to use a requirement for adult help to weed down the list of possible new scouts from the old troops. If you do that, then to reject the help of an adult who you feel is not able to do a good job would also have the effect of keeping the parent's child out of BS.

 

Overall, I'm still on the side of limiting the size of the troop to what the SM and ASMs are comfortable with, but you should consider some of the drawbacks of that policy.

 

If you want to understand where my opinions come from, the following is my experience in keeping a Girl Scout troop "closed." (If you think that the differences between Girl Scout troops and Boy Scout troops mean that my opinions are worthless, you can skip the following and ignore all my opinions above.)

My GS AL and I have had a "closed" GS troop for about half of the 7 years that I've been a leader. If we had not, I don't think either of us would still be leaders and our troop would have disbanded. I came close to burning out in the first few years when the original troop founder could never say no, so we had girls from kindergarten through 6th grade. That kind of age spread may work with the older boys in a BS troop, but it is really hard with kids that young (Imagine having a "den" with 17 Tigers through Webelos with only two leaders and usually no parents' help at meetings!). When the troop founder moved away and I took over troop leadership, my new AL agreed to help me with the stipulation that we limit new girls to those the ages of our girls (who were towards the younger end of the range) and that we aim the program at their age group and not try so hard to accommodate the older girls. I had tried to do monthly sub-group meetings with just the older girls in addition to other troop meetings and it was stretching me too thin. I was able to place the oldest girl in a junior high Cadette troop and the other older girls eventually dropped out for various reasons, except for one who is just a couple years older than the others and is still with us. We also got a few new girls while we were "closed" since we always took in any girl who moved to the school and was a GS previously. And we almost took in the few remaining girls of a failing troop of another school---sound familiar?---but only one girl joined our troop (and she's still a member) in part because of personality conflict and loyalty issues of the 3 other girls. A couple of years ago, we worried that our troop might get "too small", but it has stabilized into a nice small, but cohesive unit of 8 girls. Looking back, I realize that my AL actually saved the troop by her demands to focus our energies.

 

One difference between my experiences with a GS troop and a BS troop is that my co-leader and I could make our own decisions about troop size without pressure from anyone except the parents of the girls who wanted to join. There is no "committee" in GS and our Service Unit (run by troop leaders) has a "hands-off" attitude toward managing troops. Luckily, our GS council usually does not attend to the affairs of individual troops since their official stance is that troops should take scouts up to the legal chaperone limits---meaning a troop of 20 1st-3rd grade Brownies or 25 3rd-6th grade Juniors with only two leaders. I've always worried that parents of girls we turned away would get mad and contact the council office. If the council had ever tried to force my troop to take in too many scouts, I think my AL and I would have quit.

[Eagledad]

Hi all. Here is something I wrote on the subject a few years ago based from our experience of growing from 12 scout to 80 in five years. It has been posted on someone elses Web site, which is how I found it again.

 

Troop size and Troop program (Facts & Myths)

by Barry Runnels

 

Everyone has a preference and can list the pros or cons of each unit, with regard to size and program. There are some very fine units with all numbers of Scouts. Usually what makes a unit great is a group of adults who focus on what the Scouts get out of the program, not what the adults get. Each one of us has had our own experiences through life, our own way of doing things and our own way of handling situations. We are called Scoutmasters because we supposedly have mastered our life from our experiences. Scouting allows us to hand down what we have learned. How the dominating adults hand those experiences down to the Scouts is going to determine what kind of program your troop will have.

 

Your troop will form itself to a size that fits the program. If you work to be a true boy run troop, you will probably never get larger than 50 ACTIVE Scouts. The SPL in a truly boy run troop can only handle a maximum of 50 Scouts. Really 40 is better. You can rearrange, move around and split groups all you want, but in the end, if the SPL is in charge, 50 Scouts is the limit. Anything more, requires adults to get more evolved with the day-to-day program.

 

If your goals are a large troop and boy run is not a primary concern, then your troop will handle that large number. Whether they know it or not, and most don't, it's usually the Scoutmaster who determines the size of the troop by how he guides the program.

 

If a Scoutmaster works through the Patrol Leader Council, the troop will grow to a size the PLC can manage. Increases beyond that will cause the program to suffer and the Scouts and parents will leave for a better program until the numbers fall to a size the PLC can manage. If the SM works the program though PLC and ASMs, it will grow to that size. If the SM works through the adults, the unit may grow very large.

 

The adults in a troop need to agree on what they want the Scouts to get from the program. If it's rank and advancement, then it can be more of an adult-run program that will handle lots of boys. If leadership and behavior are more of a priority, then a troop may have to slim down a bit to allow the Scouts to learn from their actions.

 

A few myths:

 

There is a myth that you should feel obligated to accept large numbers of incoming scouts so they can enjoy your wonderful program. The truth is, if the troop size greatly changes, your program will change. Logistics, equipment, number of Patrols and adult leaders will change just to keep up. If the adults and scouts are not ready, you will loose about 25% of your Scouts while the troop leadership scurries to catch up. Your wonderful program may no longer be so wonderful. If you do expect a large influx of new scouts, your leadership should plan now so you don't get lost when they do come. And prepare for a different program that fits your new size. Not necessarily better or worse, just different.

 

Another myth is that you have to keep your numbers low to stay boy-run. Well, yes and no. As I write this, we are the third largest troop (in our district) hovering around 80 Scouts. And we brag to be very boy run, maybe the most boy run troop in the district. But any given time through of the year, we average about 40 to 50 Scouts at meetings. Sports and other outside activities keep us to that number. So the program is still manageable for the SPL and we maintain avery active boy run program.

 

Another myth is that that splitting your program solves the big troop problems. Not really. We looked at this several different ways and talked to a lot of units who did it. Every unit said that it doubles the logistical problems of the troop for the leadership. The split didn't really solve many of the big troop problems except space. In fact, every leader said the program still felt big and the problems tripled because the communication and management became more critical. Even though each group was smaller, they were still run like big groups, so they still lost the Scouts and adults who wanted a small group program. Units that liked and worked well with the split program had more than 200 Scouts. That's a lot of scouts. You might go this way, but don't expect to solve your big group problems. Splitting the troop just allowed the big troops to get bigger. If you split, I suggest splitting into a whole new troop with a different charter. STILL difficult, but it forces each adult to focus on one troop and one program.

 

Yet another myth is that you have to take every Scout that comes to your troop. You don't. You don't have to do anything. We have never turned a Scout away from our troop, but I always give visitors names of 4 or 5 other troops in town. I know how important it is to find a troop that fits the family. Those troops are grateful for the help (and isn't being helpful the Scouting way)? Some troops control size by high initial dues. Some control it by only inviting a small limited number of Webelos Dens. Troops that I have seen turn away Scouts up front usually regret it later by the reputation developed from that method.

 

What I am trying to say is you don't really have much control on numbers. You can try, but it's difficult. You do have a lot of control on your program. And your program will probably control your numbers. The adults need to sit down and discuss goals, and your experience in the program that will lead you to those goals, (as will training and help from other sources). You need to decide what you want the boys to get out of their experience in your troop and build your plan of action to reach those goals. This may all seem vague and difficult, but if you don't do it, you will regret it later when you're r standing there watching 100 screaming scouts running around waiting for the program to kick in.

 

Gather your adults and ask them to speak openly about where they want the program to go. Agree on a plan and explain that plan to everyone in your troop and visitors to your troop. Then drive the program, with your PLC, to that plan. Eventually your numbers will fit into the program that comes from your plan. Of course the plan will change on the way to your goals, but that is a given. Just recognize the need for a plan and to have everyone working towards it. Ask for prayers, they help a lot. Ask for help from Scouts_L, there is a lot of experience there.

 

[Lisabob]

GS-CS, I can certainly understand your dilemma. Trying to remember back to my own GS days (fuzzy memory at work here). I think one difference between GS and cub packs is that within a given GS troop there isn't that age division like you typically see with the dens in a cub pack - and the adult leadership that dens add to the pack is vital, IMO (ie, not just a Cubmaster and Asst but also all those den leaders to help provide a program).

 

It is too bad though, that nobody in your area could or did start up a "sister" troop for girls of different ages (but still too young for the cadet troop) than the ones you were able to take. That might've worked nicely. Also just one question, what happened (will happen?) with the troop when your daughters age out? Will/did it fold? Will/did someone else start a new group again for the younger girls to keep things going?

 

Lisa'bob

 

 

[firecrafter]

Thank you all for your replies! Some great points made & a lot to consider. I am printing some things off for our group to read.

Some have asked about parental involvement in our group. For a variety of reasons we seem to have a large number of boys with no father in the picture. They have no male role model whatsoever. Several are being raised by grandmothers, several have fathers who are deceased, and many live in single parent homes with only the mother. Those boys make up about 70% of our troop. I feel like that is a great opportunity for us to be a positive influence for these guys!

We have 19 adult leaders on our roster, with about 5 who are active (as far as being physically present for meetings/outings). The SM typically goes on all outings with perhaps one or two ASMs There are about 30 scouts on the roster at this time, with 10 new scouts being added in the next few weeks (just had crossovers). We are a boy led troop with emphasis on character. The SMs attitude is "have fun, be safe, learn a little something in the process".

I would like nothing better than to see another troop start up in the area. We can suggest that, and give suggestions and guidance, but sadly most parents seem to want someone else to do the work. We get a lot of parents who drop & run.

 

I like the idea of one parent/guardian from each family signing up to do SOMETHING. Our committee shot that down as "unfair". Honestly, we can't even get parents to drive scouts to outings! Yet when it comes time for committee meetings they all fuss & tell the few who are active how they want things done. Tell me what's "fair" about that?

 

Our SM gives up a week, unpaid, to take the boys to camp every summer. We have ASMs who have three weeks paid vacation time who won't give up time to go! We routinely hear "I have something to do" on weekends when the boys camp. There are 3 dads who go, including the SM. My idea is that the boys who have a parent going/driving go. After that, first come, first serve until you run out of seats in the vans/cars. Again, we hear "not fair".

 

My idea for limiting new scouts was to figure out what we can reasonably handle, then take boys on a first come first serve basis, adding names to a waiting list if we had to. I know it's not a perfect solution, but maybe it would convince parents to participate.

Personally, I don't want my boys in a troop where there is not enough adult supervision and safety becomes an issue. They don't need chaos. Been there, done that.

 

I do think the committee is finally getting the idea that it's the SM who runs the program! Progress! I suppose the CO/CC/SM will ultimately decide the numbers issue. Sure wish we could avoid all the squabbling in committee though! I can dream can't I?

 

Again, thanks for your replies!

firecrafter

[GS-CS_leader]

Thank you Eagledad for some really good info on troop size issues.

 

To answer Lisabob's questions about my GS troop (BS members can ignore this post):

 

Yes, my GS troop is still going. It's not the outdoors-oriented GS troop that I had hoped to lead to fulfill my childhood dreams of a troop for girls that did "real" camping like the BS (not just car camping like my Camp Fire Girl troop). (I'm sending my like-minded daughter to a Wisconsin GS camp for backpacking this summer.) But I'm expecting the 3 5th graders, 4 6th graders, and 1 8th grader to all continue next year (most have been in the troop for 5-6 years). In fact, I came back from a recent overnight at a science museum re-enthused after seeing how well the girls worked together. And I think the new format for the IP's is going to make the program much more accessible to my troop.

 

I worked really hard to get a Brownie troop at our school going a few years ago. I matched up two moms of girls in two different grades from two different schools in the district. The year before I put them in touch, Mom J from school J, had taken the 2 hour orientation class for new leaders that I used to give to new leaders in my Service Unit, and I flyered both her school and mine and held and an informational session that only got a few moms, two of which didn't speak enough English to really understand what GS was. So no troop formed. Then Mom K from my school D, with a daughter a year younger than J's asked me about starting a Brownie troop. So I put them together and they started with a mini-troop of 4 girls. The troop lasted only two years although after the first year, Mom K even recruited a whole new group from the grade below giving them a 3 grade range, but a more reasonable number of girls. But she never got much parental support, and Mom J was pretty much only a co-leader in title. So Mom K finally gave up and this year her 3rd grade daughter joined a Junior troop in the 3rd elementary school in our district.

 

So we're back to just my troop at the school and next year the younger girls in my troop will move on to the middle school, so there probably won't be any GS at the school anymore. Over the years, I've flyered and put notes in the PTA newsletter about GS, but K was the only mom to ever express interest in being a leader. It's tough to get parents to do stuff for their kids at our school. With about 300 students, typical PTA meetings get fewer than 20 parents. As the current editor of the PTA newsletter, I'll probably continue to put in a note about GS just in case there is finally an interested parent. If I find one, I'd be happy to recruit and help get the new troop going, including giving the new leader all my old Brownie meeting notes and a lot of craft leftovers as I did for the failed troop. But I'm not holding my breath....

 

A related issue is that I'm giving our fledgeling CS Pack only a 50% chance of continuing next year. This is only the pack's 2nd year after at least 10 years of no CS at the school. But this year's CM (who isn't great anyway) is moving this summer and the CC is stepping down after two years of doing way more than his fair share for the pack plus not having the time due to work demands (and his wife is the DL for our den---I'm the ADL, but will be the DL next year if we continue). Perhaps we'll get new parents at our recruitment "rally night" tomorrow night (no one showed up for an earlier rally night in Dec, but that may have been due to the snow that night). I think our best hope is that 2 of the 3 Wolf den dads who co-chaired the pinewood derby (and did a great job) will step up to be the CM and CC. They took on the pinewood derby only a month before it was held once they believed that the event could be cancelled since the CC really wouldn't be organizing the event again this year. So it may take the threat of having the pack collapse to get people to volunteer for needed positions. The pack has only two dens: wolf and bear. A potential Tiger den leader backed out after watching a training video, so we have two pseudo Tiger cubs who just come to pack meetings (one is a younger brother of a Bear cub and son of current CM).

 

As far as I know there are only two other CS packs in our town, one at public school (which doesn't have a den for my den's grade level so we used to have a scout who came from that pack to ours), and one at an Orthodox Jewish day school. There are a few packs in the town to the east of us, but they are actually in a different council.

 

Oh well, we'll see what happens at the rally night.

[GS-CS_leader]

To wrap up my previous post (and finally take my problems to a more appropriate forum):

 

The "rally night" was a bust: Only a single kindergartener and his family showed up. And the final "nail in the coffin" of our pack was that the CC told me that since at this point the pack will have no CC or CM next year, he's going to start looking for another pack for the remains of our den to join. He is swamped at work this year and only continued as CC because no one else would take the position. The den will have only 4 boys after two boys move this summer. The CC's wife is the den leader and I'm the ADL. The other two boys often miss meetings, so I wonder if they will just drop CS if we leave the pack. I had already discussed this idea breifly with the DL, so it wasn't a complete shock to me. But I have to admit that I still hoped that miraculously, we'd get a new crop of scouts and parents.

 

Anyway, I'm joining the Cub Scout forum, "So many problems, where to start" opened by a DL with a similar situation.

 

Thanks, Lisabob, for lending a sympathetic ear.