Is it really all that bad to be different?

[Beavah]

Yah, Yah, OK. Ill join in the biting, OGE.

 

So ders a troop in da next town over, chartered to a church. I was UC for them a few years back. About 50 kids, very active, very popular program, great older scout retention. They often have to turn kids away because they dont want to get too big. The Institution Head (minister) was very involved. It was always clear that the troops policies were his policies, even if it was the boys who set the policy.

 

Lets see: no age-based patrols, they used vertical patrols like my troop. No first year patrol, the kids entered into existing patrols, which were permanent." Some kids even joined the same patrol their dad had been in. PLs were elected by their patrols, SPL was elected by outingoing PLs. No patrol yells or flags, but they cooked, camped, and traveled by patrol, and had lots of patrol pride. No first class first year, they advanced about one rank a year or so. BORs included older scouts on the board. BORs did what most would call retest, but not every requirement. Scout Spirit was a very real requirement, and had to be signed off by a younger scout, an older scout, a teacher, and a parent for every rank. I dont think theyve ever had an Eagle younger than 17, and their Eagle service projects are easily triple the man-hours of any other troop in the district. Their PLC sets dues, decides the calendar, determines and manages the budget, and even makes policy. Boys take turn planning outings, and older boys do ALL of the instruction and signoff of younger boys. I never once saw a bully there, but I did several times see older boys helping younger boys in their patrol with math homework. Their official uniform was a BSA shirt with any decent outdoorsy pant besides jeans. They only wore shirts part time at meetings, never on outings, and they had a lot of non-standard uniform parts like Royal order of the Fork knots. Some fundraising went into personal accounts, but half of it could only be used to buy some gear or pay for a trip for a younger boy in your patrol.

 

This troop very clearly reflected the goals and policies of the CO. They very clearly did an outstanding job developing young men of character, fitness, citizenship, and service. They had fantastic retention and long-term loyalty. They used the BSA program materials very well as a resource, but its pretty durn clear that they didnt view it as McDonalds so much as some stuff with which to make their own hamburgers. Ive seen few hamburgers that tasted so good, and I certainly wouldnt want their burger shop torn down and replaced by McDonalds.

 

It's true, just like the old Soviet system, standardization does guarantee minimum quality - for everybody.

 

And dats only one example. For a while, the biggest troop in another town in our district was chartered to a Catholic school and run as a school extracurricular activity. Teachers were SM/ASMs. It was more adult run than some troops, but less than others. There were all kinds of modifications that they made. Around here, some home schooling cooperatives are starting to use Scouting as part of their curriculum. They are definitely retesting but it works really well for their goals.

 

Yah, yah, I know, "that's not really scouting" yada yada. There are always people who make church more important than God, policy more important than principle, and program details more important than kids.

 

A wise man knows that a tree is judged by its fruit, and a field by its carrots. Dont sweat da other stuff, Elmer.

 

[Lynda J]

I know of CO's that change the BSA program all the time. Don't anyone get mad at me but the LDS program is in many cases very different that the BSA program. Rank advancement it different, camping requirements is different.

 

I have taken National Camp School twice. Worked harder than I have ever worked the first time. Second time was much easier. But I don't remember anywhere where they advocated everyone using the same program.

 

As far as everything in Scouting being standardized. What about making everything standardized? You can go into any chain store across this nation and not get the same service.

Since we deal with different people and different parts of the country it won't ever be exactly the same. Everyone's program will be slightly different. Because we are working with different people and boys.

One of the reason I enjoy taking trainings over and over is that very thing. I get new ideas every time simply because I am with different people.

[Cubmaster Jerry]

Here's my bite worth:

 

Admittedly I know very little about my sister Troop. That is because the individuals running the Unit are difficult to get ahold of. As such, I can't speak of their implementation of the Patrol method, how they run their Merit Badges, or any other aspect of their program. But I can tell you that they have a very difficult time recruiting and retaining boys. So someting is not only different but something is wrong. So much so that out of the 40 or so Webelos that my Pack has graduated over the last three years only a small handful have moved into this Troop - and only out of convenience of location, I believe. Most others have moved into another Troop. I can only speculate on what my be different/wrong. Cub leaders and others familiar with scouting normally go to other Troops. When I have gotten ahold of the ASM, "everything is fine". Expressing my concerns with the UC, her response is to form another Troop in the area as a result of this.

 

As far as Cubs go, I met a new Webelos Den Leader at NCS. Part of her charge as B&G Chair was not only planning for food and guests but planning the program as well. When I asked her about the role of the Cubmaster in this and whether or not s/he is working with her the answer was No. Apparently she was to be the MC as well! Now, some may see roles and responsibilities as 'guidelines' but the fact of the matter is that the CM (hopefully) has the training to put on such programs whereas the DL would not. When I started explaining roles and responsibilities, her eyes got real big and she indicated that wasn't quite the way it worked in her unit. Now, personally, I find it difficult to understand why a new DL of only 4 months is not only charged with the responsibilities of Day Camp Director (as a result of attending NCS) but planning every aspect of B&G - the biggest gala of the Scouting year. Leadership availability may be a reason but I don't know. Roles, responsibilities, and training are there for a reason.

 

Jerry

[Beavah]

Yah, Jerry, dat's exactly what I mean.

 

There's a troop you admittedly know nothing about, but you're happy to critique them anyway. I know some troops that run fabulous programs that do absolutely no recruiting at all, because they like "the small troop feel." I know packs where the cubmaster does things, and where he delegates; where Blue and Gold is a huge gala, and where Blue and Gold is a simple event. Generally, I've found in most volunteer organizations that it's far better to tailor the job to the talents & interests of the person than it is to shoehorn a person into a pre-existing job description.

 

Are there weak programs out there? Sure, usually because they've selected the wrong people for jobs, who lack the necessary talent and enthusiasm. Program issues are just a symptom, not the cause. Could every program and person in the world get better? Sure. Not by standardization, but by doing a better job tapping into the unique resources they have. If you really expect anybody to fit your idealized "standard" of Scouting you'll always be disappointed... and you'll be somewhere between annoying and destructive to the many good volunteers out there who run reasonable programs.

 

If you have waskally wabbits, don't try to make them live in treehouses and eat nuts, even if that's what the book says. Either feed 'em carrots or hire a squirrel. But remember that wabbits need scouting, too.

 

[Lisabob]

Gosh Jerry, I'm afraid I'm with Beavah on this one. Just because things work one way in your unit does not mean things will work exactly the same way elsewhere. Yes, there's training and everyone should go, learn, and apply. But it is also necessary to work together with a group of people and to draw on everyone's strengths. Sometimes what works on paper doesn't work in real life for some legitimate reasons.

 

Also, I've staffed cub leader training courses as well as sitting through a fair few and I do not recall anyone saying precisely who is in charge of planning the B&G... There are seven packs in my town and I know leaders in most of them - they all handle this differently. In one, the CM does nearly all of this. In others, the CM and CC take a tag team approach. In at least one, they have a separate B&G chairperson who is part of the committee. The balance shifts as personnel shift too.

 

In the pack I was affiliated with, it was tradition for the webelos den leaders and advancement chair to plan the entire B&G. In some cases, we had a very active CM who was also excited about being heavily involved in the planning and he was welcomed. In others, our CM was great with the kids but planning wasn't exactly his strength - as long as we told him what we needed though, he was happy to carry it out. In that case more of the planning fell to other leaders.

 

For our last B&G that I was part of: I was advancement chair and my husband was one of the WDLs. The CM, who had served the pack extremely well for 3 years, was stepping down and he had recently changed jobs so he was hardly ever in town anyway. By mutual agreement the webelos den leaders and I did most of the planning without the CM's extensive involvement. However, he did a lot of behind the scenes work including hand carving special awards for all 14 of our Webelos II boys.

 

A lecture at some training session from someone who wasn't familiar in the least bit with our pack would've been unwelcome at best. In fact I'd have been offended - though I'm sure that wasn't your intent. And had you and I had this conversation, I would have advised you to get to know some other units in your area before making these kinds of judgments.

 

Lisa'bob

 

 

[Oak Tree]

Jerry,

 

If the unit is having difficulty retaining boys, then I'd agree that they have a problem. But I do know that not all units want to recruit a lot of boys. It would be interesting to know if a number of families try it and drop out, and if so, what are the reasons they give?

 

As for how the Blue and Gold is planned, I have to agree with Beavah and Lisa'bob (who are two of my favorite recent additions to the forum). There are lots of ways to plan it. Our pack has a Blue and Gold chairperson on the committee. And the Cubmaster helps with the program pieces.

 

Sure, you want some basic guidelines for running a pack, but I believe that enthusiastic leaders are the #1 predictor of a pack's success. Much more so, than, say, training. So if you can get some enthusiastic leaders into different positions, go for it.

 

Oak Tree

[Cubmaster Jerry]

I hope that you didn't misunderstand me. I certainly do not think that the BSA should mandate "cookie-cutter" programs where we are all the same. Nor do I think that we should give a particular responsibility to someone who is not suited for it. In my last unit, the W2 leaders always wanted to plan B&G as it was their graduation. The CM filled in parts where needed. It is not done that way in the Pack I am in now. It's my program start to finish. Both were very successful.

 

The individual I met at NCS who was B&G Chair and in charge of the whole program was hesitant about performing her duties as she had never done anything like that before. She had obviously been "shoehorned" in. My sister Troop has that small troop look not because they like the feel of it but because the program and management can use some improvements. That much I do know through people who have dropped out of the Troop.

 

I was recently speaking with a couple of my DLs who took their dens to a local hockey game for a den outing. When they arrived, they found another group of scouts were sitting in their seats (it was scout night at the game). After some effort and persistance, the ill-mannered scouts and their leader finally moved to the next section back. During the game, these scouts persistently threw things and otherwise showed bad scout behavior. In addition to that, they attended the game in their scout shirt - unbuttoned an no neckerchiefs. That is the different=wrong I am speaking of. Actions like that do not follow the intent or promotion of the BSA program.

[Oak Tree]

You're right about that. Allowing/encouraging bad behavior is clearly not a good difference.

 

Oak Tree

[Lisabob]

Jerry I agree that this sort of misbehavior witnessed at the hockey game is unacceptable. But more BSA rules, regulations, training, etc. probably are not going to fix this. These scouts - and worse, their leaders - are already in violation of existing rules or guidelines or whatever one may wish to call them and whether they're trained or not, any adult with a modicum of common sense should have been able to figure out that such behavior is intolerable. This was simply a failure of adult leadership.

 

One approach to this kind of behavior might be for people who were present and offended to find out what unit they're from and make darn sure that the CC and CM of the unit hear about it (assuming they weren't present) - maybe the DE and the chartering org too. One can also point out to one's own scouts how poorly such behavior reflects on ALL scouts, and why it is doubly important for them to set a good example.

 

You know it might have a bigger impression on those scouts than you'd expect. One time we did a webelos campout in order to work on LNT. Initially our boys didn't seem all that interested. But there was a troop camping in the next site over that broke just about every LNT principle in the course of the evening - including chopping live trees "for fun" in the middle of the night. It was actually shocking - even more because the adults present had no interest in stopping the boys from misbehaving. By the morning our boys knew, understood, and had internalized the fundamental meaning of LNT. They still talk about it, 2 years later. I know our guys will never behave that way.

 

Lisa'bob

[Beavah]

I'm a bit confused, eh? Not unusual, my kids tell me.

 

Jerry, your original post said:

Should it matter how I, you, or anyone else gets across the message of the Core Values to the boys? The answer is yes....It goes back to following standards.

 

All of us would agree with you in terms of the behavior of the group you mentioned, or the troop Lisa'bob talked about whackin' away at da trees. Those are failures to convey the core principles of scoutin' to boys via any method. They are failures even if the troop is usin' all of the 8 methods "by the book." In fact, if either unit said they were usin' "youth leadership" I'd be suggesting that it was time for some "adult leadership" instead.

 

It was your above quote dat confuseled me. I wouldn't have a problem with a well-behaved, trustworthy, friendly, and helpful troop at a hockey game if it used non-standard "uniform" pants. If they were fun to be with and cleaned up after themselves, I don't mind a whit whether their SPL was elected by the whole troop, by the PLC, or drawn out of a hat.

 

So I don't think that it matters exactly how a unit gets across the message of Core Values to the boys, as long as it does. In fact, I think the "how" has to change a bit to match the needs of the particular boys at that moment, even if that "modifies" the standard program.

 

I'd encourage you to think that way about your upcoming work on behalf of Day Camp. You'll only do a poor to mediocre job if you diligently apply standards equally to everybody. You'll be much more successful if you "help other people at all times" by starting with "standards" and then modifying your support and services to meet the needs of each pack, and each boy.

 

[dan]

In this whole thread I only saw a few changes that I thought where really changes to the program. They where:

Retesting (I assume that they was at a BOR)

Troops not using the patrol method

 

The next 3 examples, posters said that they where changes to the program I do not think they are.

 

Mandating that a Eagle project takes at least x amount of hours (I think that is what 3 times the normal hours mean, since there is no standard I do not know how this could be measured, most councils control the eagle project, not the troop, note I said MOST)

LDS troops adding requirements for camping (I think this maybe a myth, how are they changing it? Camping one night a month instead of two? Just becuase one or a few LDS troop does it does not mean they all do)

A poster said that the troop does not have a First Class in a Year program, but also said scouts make about a rank per year, sounds like they have the program but do not understand it or do not like the term FCFY or think the olds ways are better, even though they are the same.

 

Most of these sounds like leaders not understanding the program more than changing it.

 

When I think of difference standards. I think of 2 scouts that attend maybe 1 or 2 campouts a year and less than 50 percent of the meetings, when asked one scout says he has CCD classes every weekend and sports practice on the night of the troop meetings. The other scouts which has attended the same amount or maybe a few more says he did not feel like attending, the first scout I would say that he has been active in the troop the 2nd scout I would not, I would not allow the 2nd scout to advance to the next rank, some will say I am incorrect on this, but this is the standard I use.

 

If you run a troop that adds requirements at least be mature enough to tell the scouts that the troop does this and tell them how they could contest the added requirements.

 

[CNYScouter]

Beavah- I couldn't agree more that many Troops are selecting the "wrong people for the job".

My son's troop has a new SM. How did they select this person. He was the first person to say he would do it. How long did the seach take, about 5 min. The outgoing announced he waanted to step down and the first person who said yes was given the job. I didn't even know the troop was looking for a new SM. Do to a last minute time change I missed the committee meeting where this happened. They did the same with the Tresurer, gave it to the first person who said yes instead of asking the father who is a CPA to do it and they just selected a new CC the same way.

 

CA_Scouter - I do agree that a good scouter follows the gudielines as best as possible. However I am seeing a great deal of troop who knowingly ignore the guidelines and just do what they want. At my son's troops yearly adult planning session I had to debate with the other leaders about becoming a "model" BSA troop and using the BSA guidelines. I pretty much lost and they are knowingly not following a good deal of BSA guidelines.

I have now talked with over half of the Troop in my district and have found only a few that use the patrol method. almost every troop I talked with used "virtual" patrols.

 

The issue is that Troops like this are giving Scouting a bad repretation by presenting a poor program and turning youth off of scouting.

And there is nothing anyone can do about it

 

 

 

[CA_Scouter]

CNY,

 

I'm wit you. Following the guidelines is entirely dependant upon how the adults implement the program. Unfortunately its like any other volunteer position - most people are not trained for the job and they miss the mark ( think: kids sports - nutty parents, crazy coaches ).

 

And there is little you can do about it... :-(

 

 

 

[Cubmaster Jerry]

CNY writes The issue is that Troops like this are giving Scouting a bad repretation by presenting a poor program and turning youth off of scouting. And there is nothing anyone can do about it

 

And that is because of the way the BSA organization is designed - to provide - or force (depending on which way you look at it) the responsibility of governing the program on the individual leaders rather than providing oversight. Again, depending on how you look at it, that can be good or bad.

 

Beavah, again, I think you misunderstand the direction of my comments - or maybe I should apologize for not making myself clear enough. It is not as if I am suggesting that we stand at our meetings,outings,etc with the list of BSA standards and check them off as they are met. But there are things that I think should be considered important and shouldn't be different from unit to unit. Wear of the uniform is one of those.

 

Regarding my Day Camp, I can tell you that we don't follow the BSA guidelines to the T. For example, we don't divide the dens into age groups because the size of our camp doesn't allow us to do this effectively. But we do have all of the required training, letters of approval, and activities common to Scouting. In this manner, we can still present the camp as a positive experience in the eyes of the boys, council, and by what the BSA intends. On the flip side, if we went so far as to determine that the attendees of our day camp would rather spend every day playing soccer or that they would rather have a five-day pokemon card tournament then we would be missing the aims of scouting if we allowed that to happen simply because that is what we felt was wanted.

 

Jerry

 

[AvidSM]

The standards of Scouting are much like to standards of the english language.

 

Change a couple o da rules and you still get yo message across.

 

Bt chnge a lt o th rls n its vry hrd t reed th msg.

 

So it is with Scouting. It OK to be different, as long as you are making sensible and adaptive changes (and you are not violating YPP or G2SS rules). Make a too many changes, for whatever reasons, and you are no longer delivering a scouting program.