Is it really all that bad to be different?

[OldGreyEagle]

Ok, now we have two threads running concurrently on how its ok to be different in the scouting program. I have seen a lot of thoughts on why its ok to be different, but I am still looking for the example of how one troop does something other than as prescibed in the program and why it works better for them. It could be a troop you "know of" or "heard about", but I want to get a handle on what people think is program flexibility and what is going off the program.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[CNYScouter]

I have to agree with Cubmaster Jerry. I should see the same quality of service reguardless of where you are at

 

Semper says: The difference between the Troop that I work with and McDonalds is that we are not in business to sell a product that has been turned into a homogenous unit.

 

A non-profit is a business. It may not be there to make money but it is a business. A non-profit has a product or service to offer

 

What is the BSA business? The BSA is in the business to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

 

Isnt this the same as selling a product that has been turned into a homogenous unit.?

 

Isnt the BSAs product or service the same no matter where in the US you are?

 

McDonalds or Walmart uses the same set of standards in every one of its stores.

Why do Troops need to tweek standards?

 

If the same guidelines are successful for Walmart or McDonalds, whether it be in Maine, Texas or California, why dont the same guidelines work for your Troop?

What makes the scouts in your troop different from the Scouts in another troop?

 

I am not saying that every troop should be the exact copy of each other and do the same camping trips and activates across the nation, however when I visit a Troop meeting shouldnt I see Scouts working in Patrols, being led by a SPL, following the same Advancement program and each one looking like they are following the same guidelines.

 

When I went looking at other troops, the only way I knew that they were in the same organization is because they wore a uniform and said they were a Scout Troop.

Heck, I still havent found a Troop in my district that uses the Patrol Method as in the gudelines

 

CA_Scouter - so you are saying because you are not a paid employee and cant be fired, you dont have to follow the BSA guidelines?

 

So, for you posters who say its OK not to use the guidelines: Is Ok not to use patrols? Is Ok for adults to arrange all the MB classes for the Scouts? Is it OK for adults to plan all the camping trips, prepare the menus and do the dishes?

 

I recently talked with someone who was interested in starting a Venture Crew. When I told him that my son was intested in Venturing as he has become bored with his Troops program. He said he was looking for a Crew for his son, as he was 13 and almost an Eagle and wanted to do something different.

When I asked him about his troop he told me, ver proudly, that scouts in his troop move very fast through the ranks. He said that they very rarely use patrols and meet using one large group. The Troop had 65 scouts in it but had none older than 15.

Hell tell you his Troop is running a great program and is working for them.

 

So, I guess for all you posters who say its OK to tweek the program dont have any problem with a Troop like this

 

[Beavah]

Yah, well... I'm not too big on being judgmental about how fellow volunteers run their programs, or how other Chartered Organizations operate. Da BSA ain't McDonalds. It's a resource provider for community organizations to use in running their own youth programs. Emphasis on their own. Those are the terms of the BSA's congressional charter, and each council and unit charter.

 

What Catholics, LDS, VFW, the council the next state over, or Joe's Pizza shop do in terms of structuring their youth scouting programs is really none o' my business.

 

Nor anyone else's.

 

BTW, the reason Cubmaster Jerry got different answers to his NCS questions is because every state has different camp licensing laws and regulations, and each council corporation is quite independent. When you travel, every doctor is licensed under different rules and different standards in different states, and in most states, the EMS personnel operate under different rules in each COUNTY.

 

Our founding fathers thought that was a good thing. "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited it by it to the States, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people." Different rules, and different applications, in different places.

 

Local control to better serve, and be more responsive to, the people's needs.

 

How progressive.

 

[SR540Beaver]

Well, I am concerned how other volunteers run their units because it is a reflection on the program as a whole in the public's eyes. When I registered as an adult and attended the training, it was with the idea that I liked the program, supported it and would deliver it as designed. A charter organization enters into an agreement with the BSA and is granted a license for one year to operate the BSA's program. They do not just get to use the name and do it however they feel like it. Otherwise, we'd have gays, atheists and girls in units that wear goth uniforms and hang out at the mall instead of going on campouts.

[Beavah]

A charter organization enters into an agreement with the BSA and is granted a license for one year to operate the BSA's program.

 

Nah, fellow Beaver. Yah gotta read those program materials everyone talks about all da time. A charter organization enters into an agreement with the BSA to license the BSA's materials for a year to operate their own youth program. The BSA "respect the aims and objectives of the organization and offer the resources of Scouting to help in meeting those objectives."

 

So the CO's Aims, not the BSA's, are what controls.

 

Same goes for councils, which are separate corporations that apply for a license/charter to "distribute" Scouting materials and offer program support in a geographic area.

 

Yah, the BSA can choose not to enter into an agreement, and vice versa (as we've seen a lot lately with charters gettin' dumped). 3 G's maybe, but not anything else. If you're going to try to reach most of America's youth, ya gotta be a bit less parochial.

 

Goth may make a great Venturing uniform...

 

 

 

 

[FScouter]

BSA provides the Scouting program and Scouting resources for chartered organizations to use as part of their programs for youth and families. There is no license granted to alter or modify the program as the CO or unit leaders see fit. The CO does not have the right to alter the program. The objectives, policies, and guidelines of the CO do not trump the BSA program, nor BSA policies and guidelines.

 

BSA does not interfere with the programs and policies of the CO. Likewise, the CO has no right to modify or otherwise redefine the BSA program.

[CA_Scouter]

Responding to CNY...

 

CA_Scouter - so you are saying because you are not a paid employee and cant be fired, you dont have to follow the BSA guidelines?

 

No Sir. I'm saying that as we are volunteers, the BSA understands that it cannot control every aspect of your program, so it provides 'guidelines', not enforceable/punishable rules and regulations, to form your program around. A good scouter follows those guidelines to the best of their ability, and if they don't require the Scouts to wear official socks, they are not expelled from the BSA.

 

Being involved with this forum for a while now, I believe we are ALL following the intent and spirit of the Scouting program. Concerns being aired on these forums are typically for very minor deviations from the BSA guidelines ( mostly uniform discrepancies ), OR they are for hypothetical situations developed by the poster.

 

I would like to see specific examples of posters not following the program as I'd rather deal in realities rather than hypotheticals.

 

Reality: troop doesn't use the Patrol Method

Hypothetical: if an alien spaceship landed in the middle of your skillbase...

 

What would you rather comment on?

 

 

 

 

[Cubmaster Jerry]

Beavah writes: The BSA is "a resource provider for community organizations to use in running their own youth programs. Emphasis on their own"

 

So if you were a CM/SM of a unit and had a majority of the boys who preferred to not wear uniforms, you'd be ok with that? And, if these boys, who had never been introduced to camping because maybe this particular unit is in a metropolitan area, and therefore they have no desire to go, you'd be ok with that?

 

If that is the case, then you, or your CO, would then be altering the aims of Scouting to suit the desires of the youth you serve. As admirable as that may sound, that is not scouting. The YMCA or other youth programs probably offer many programs that may be better suited for these boys.

[SR540Beaver]

CA_Scouter: I would like to see specific examples of posters not following the program as I'd rather deal in realities rather than hypotheticals.

 

Ok, I'll bite. However, this true example is not from the troop I serve. It is from another troop in town who was recruiting back when my son was a Webelos. The SM gave a little talk and explained what they did in their troop. He said what time and day they met and said we work on MB's and sometimes we'll go do something like laser tag. Honest to goodness, that was his recruitment hook. A big RED flag popped up immediately for me to steer my son away from this troop regardless of how fun laser tag sounded. It told me a number of things. The troop was adult led since all they did was work on MB's. It also told me that the adult leaders didn't have the first clue of the aims or methods of Scouting and had little to no training of how to run the program and train the boys to lead. I'm sure they have a blast when they play laser tag or go skating. They probably get pretty bored sitting thru the MB classes though. Oddly enough, the unit gets a a few new boys each year, but have never really grown much. Go figure!

[Lisabob]

Yeah I'll bite too. Here are a couple of examples of differences I've noticed among three troops in my area. I know and respect leaders from all of these troops. (Current SMs of 2 were even fellow Birds - though not bobwhites, sadly for them - in the wb course I was part of. Now that speaks volumes about them - we birds flock together.)

 

Religious practice:

Troop A, chartered by a local church, includes a large dose of religious practice in their troop meetings and campouts. They do scout's own services, Scout Sundays, etc. on campouts. They actively encourage the boys to complete the religious programs for their faith. Many of the boys in the troop belong to the church that sponsors this unit, but non-members are also welcomed.

 

Troop B, chartered by another local church, does almost nothing religious. They take the view that this is a private matter for a scout and his family.

 

Troop C, chartered by a service club, closes every meeting and campout with prayer requests, a group prayer (non-denominational), and the scout sign of benediction. However, few boys earn the religious awards.

 

Regarding advancement:

Troop A provides a lot of opportunities but does not push advancement. They seem to have a lot of older scouts who love the troop and scouting in general but aren't that motivated to earn Eagle. SM told me once that he views pushing/cajoling these guys into rank advancement beyond 1st Class - particulary Eagle - as missing the point. Still, their older scouts have the best "scout skills" I've seen from any of these three troops.

 

Troop B has a pretty structured 1st year/1st class program and almost all of their new scouts make that goal. They are by no means a "mill" but there's a lot more emphasis on advancement in this group. It isn't uncommon for boys to earn Eagle around the age of 14 in this troop.

 

Troop C takes a very hands off approach to advancement, with the result that advancement happens slowly, particularly among new scouts. Most of the boys who earn Eagle in this troop do so at age 16 or above.

 

Regarding size:

Troop A is small - usually under 20 scouts. Many of the scouts in this unit have developmental or physical disabilities, or just seem to be "quirky" in some way and not fit the mainstream. The small size allows the leaders to do a lot of one-on-one with the boys. They're a very close knit group.

 

Troops B and C are much bigger (between 40-50 boys). While there are a lot of adults involved in both troops, the boy:leader ratio is greater than in troop A. Leaders in both groups have agreed that this makes it a little more likely that a boy who isn't quite "typical" may slip through the cracks. Given the more hands off style of troop C, this seems especially true there.

 

Excitement Factor/Recruiting Style

Troop A doesn't do a lot of recruitment beyond their "feeder" pack, also sponsored by their church. They have always been more than happy to lend a hand to cub packs when asked, but they don't actively pursue cubs from packs outside their own church. They figure that boys/families who would fit well with their troop's style will seek them out.

 

Troop B probably gets the majority of webelos who cross over around here. They're known for having a very active recruiting program and they use their strong first year program as a hook. They regularly reach out to packs to invite webelos to attend campouts and meetings with the troop.

 

Troop C has a few set recruitment events each fall/early winter, which are typically well-attended. They emphasize the fact that they camp almost every month and take big trips out of state every other year as the main way to showcase their troop's strengths.

 

Camping:

Troop A tends to camp about 6 times a year. Due to smaller size, patrols for campouts tend to be mixed age/rank.

 

Troop B camps every month, more if you include patrol campouts. Most of their campouts are local, though they include a fair number of backpacking type campouts (not just car camping). They regularly attend district events.

 

Troop C camps about 10 months out of the year. Most of their campouts are car camping, though they have a strong venture patrol that goes further afield and does more backpacking. They don't usually attend district events.

 

Each of these troops has its strengths and weaknesses, differences, and particular character or style. Some boys will flourish in one troop and maybe not in another. I'd be hard pressed to say that these sorts of differences are "bad" though.

 

Lisa'bob

[Beavah]

Likewise, the CO has no right to modify or otherwise redefine the BSA program.

 

Well, dat's true. Why would anyone believe that a CO could modify the BSA's copyrighted works? They're owned by the BSA.

 

The point is only that the CO gets to choose how to use the BSA's materials in running it's own youth program, according to its own policies and guidelines.

 

If that is the case, then you, or your CO, would then be altering the aims of Scouting to suit the desires of the youth you serve. As admirable as that may sound, that is not scouting.

 

As strange as it may sound, that is Scouting, as defined by the congressional charter and the BSA's charter agreements. It's also very American (in the traditional values sense, not the current hyper-legal regulatory sense).

 

Scouting resources are used to advance the aims of the CO. By being respectful of and strengthening the youth programs of CO's, the BSA hopes to advance character, fitness, and citizenship in youth. They're betting that strengthening CO youth programs with good materials and resources is a better way to meet their goals than making everyone do the same thing.

 

BSA scouting is closer to "charter schools" or "faith based initiatives" than it is to the more lockstep and highly regulated government programs.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Beavah, I am not sure what you are talking about exactly. Its in the BSA program that it takes 21 merit badges to get Eagle, that the SPL is to be elected by the troop, that the patrol method is the basic building block of scouting. What differences are you talking about? What are you talking about as not being necessary? I dont understand

[CNYScouter]

CA_Scouter

 

The situation I asked about is real. Last year at this time I went looking for a new Troop as the one my son was in I knew ws not right. No Patrols, CC and SM ran everything, Committee Meetings were twice a year and were only info sessions. SM got very made when anyone started questioning this troops policies.

I have now visited or talked with over half the Troops in my district and the only ones I see using the patrol methid are the troopswith less than 10 scouts.

Every Troop I looked at uses "virtual patrols" (mixing patrols for trips).

 

The person and Troop I asked about is real. I just had this conversation with the Troop leader and he was tryin to get my son to join his troop.

[CA_Scouter]

CNY - apologies... I did not mean to imply that your particular post was not a real situation, what I was trying to address was the preponderance of 'what if' scenarios that I've been seeing on this topic.

 

 

btw - shhhhh... I don't mind telling yall, but we really did have an alien spacecraft interrupt one of our skillbases... :-)

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Beavah,

 

Are you da biggest fan of dat wascally wabbit Bugs Bunny or is dis just an assumption on my part? Just wonderin' if I's right or ain't.