By-Laws

[packwife]

Ok, this is not exactly a new topic. After reading some of the posts here, I am beginning to think that troop by-laws are a mistake. Our troop will be deciding on bylaws tonight. Basically, the bylaws our committee wants are to make sure parents know about dues and consequenses for not paying them, such as when Court of Honor rolls around, your boy will not get badges. He gets recognition for completing the badge, but won't get the actual badge until dues are paid up. ($5/month) Plus, there are a few who are not progressing in the troop and the committee wants these boys to either participate and progress or leave. One boy is a tenderfoot and in 10th grade. He's been with the troop since 2002. Next, our committee chair is the scoutmasters wife. They also have 2 boys in the troop. While I'm sure most troops run this way it makes me a little uneasy with one family heading the 2 most powerful positions in the troop. She's had this position since 2001 and refuses to let anyone else take it over. Does anyone really know what can and cannot be in bylaws? Thanks

[FScouter]

Your initial perception is right. Bylaws are a waste of time and cause problems. Bylaws are the result of adults failing to follow the Scouting program. If boys don't pay dues, it's because the SM has failed to instill in them the importance of paying their own way. A bylaw does not fix that.

 

As to what can or cannot be written into by-laws, force yourself to justify every rule with support from the Boy Scout Handbook, SPL Handbook, PL Handbook, and SM Handbook. If there is no support there, the rule is doomed to failure.

[molscouter]

"there are a few who are not progressing in the troop and the committee wants these boys to either participate and progress or leave."

 

This is one that always bugs me. Do they show up? Are they having fun? Then who cares if they advance. Some kids just don't care about advancement. The troop I serve had one young man who was in our troop for 4 years and never got beyond 2nd Class (and that almost by default). His 2 years younger brother never got beyond Scout. Neither cared a bit about advancement. But they both came to a lot of meetings and went on most campouts. The older was one of the best campers in the troop, but didn't want anything to do with the book learning stuff. Both decided to drop this year (we're not sure why, but I believe fumes got to one and school work to the other; I would have considered both poor students). But they decided to drop, not the committee. It's up to the scout, not the adults.(This message has been edited by molscouter)

[SR540Beaver]

If collecting monthly dues is truely a problem and I could see where it is, propose to the committee to go to annual dues and collect them at recharter time. That is what our troop does and it solves tons of headaches. Why do something 12 times when you can do it once?

[gwd-scouter]

Our Troop has had By-Laws since it's inception in 1998, but no success in enforcing them. The Troop was started by a leader from another Troop (that had By-laws). So, naturally, he used their By-Laws and modified them a bit for the new Troop. All the Scouts were required to sign along with their parents. Couple years later, by-laws were modified slightly and signed again. Then, I took over as SM last year and modified By-laws again. Never at any time did the Scouts have any input on this - it was all done by the adult leaders.

 

The main reason I continued enforcing the by-laws was because that's what I'd seen done by many Scoutmasters with many more years of experience than I, hadn't been to training yet, so I figured they knew what they were doing.

 

Now, a year later, by-laws are a bygone memory and Scouts are beginning to do on their own what the adults were trying to force them to do by making by-laws - attendance is up, uniforming is improved, boy led/run is beginning to take hold.

 

And, regarding Scouts not advancing - we have a couple of them too. So what. They are enjoying themselves, are respectful of other Scouts and leaders and attend meetings and outings when their schedules permit. The oldest (almost 18 and a 1st class since 2001), goes to summer camp every year, has worked there for the past 2 and plan to again this summer, and is one of the best mentors to young Scouts in our troop. Just never really interested in merit badges or position of responsibility in order to advance.

 

As far as dues and using by-laws as a way to make the parents understand the circumstances of not paying, A monthly newsletter, email list, etc. can be used as a way to bring things like that to a parent's attention, (i.e., don't forget - it's time for Johnny Scout to pay dues). I think it's more important to remind Johnny Scout himself to pay rather than have hard and fast rule that says to a parent - your Scout won't receive a badge if you don't pay.

 

My 2 cents worth.

[OldGreyEagle]

You know, the BSA has 8 methods to reach the aims of scouting, and advancement is one of the 8. Its not the most important, its not the least important, its just one of the 8.

 

Does the scout benefit from the adult association he receives, does he find a sense in belonging in the patrol he is in, does he like camping and outdoor activities, has he experienced personal growth?

 

Remember the mission of the Boy Scouts is:

 

The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

 

Doesnt say thou shalt advance or die

 

We had a scout in the troop, wasnt a big advancement freak at all but he loved to camp, backpack especially. He saw that the Council had a contingent going to Philmont and wanted to go. The requirements were 13 years old and first class. As he was 14 the issue was the latter rather than the former. Properly motivated he made first class and later aged out at that rank. And when asked about his experience in scouting he would say he loved camping and Philmont was the bestest thing he ever did. That is a great ambassador for scouting, not someone bounced from a troop because he didnt live up to an adults expectations.

 

Edited part:

 

BTW, the Troop By-Laws thing? I make a distinction between information sheets, such as where and when we meet, and contact phone numbers and who to call to contact a scout on an event. But thats information.

 

When it comes to by-laws I think about who wants them and Judge Dredd remember him? "The Law? I am the Law" what is the motivation for these laws?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Cubmaster Jerry]

I'd have to disagree with the majority here and say that I am in favor of by-laws. First of all, from my perspective, the types of things that packwife's Troop wishes to include in by-laws would actually fall under two umbrellas - By-laws and what I like to call an Orientation Guide. The latter includes good-to-know info such as when dues are to be paid, general info about camping as a Scout, and when and what a Court of Honor is - things to introduce a parent and a scout to what Boy Scouts are all about.

 

The By-laws should include the enforceable rules of the Pack such as what happens if someone doesn't pay, does the Unit refund money if a boy quits, and any requirements for holding a Committee position.

 

When I say 'enforceable' I use that term loosely. By-laws aren't used to form the basis for a judicial-type system in the Unit. But over the years, decisions are made for specific reasons. Maybe not so much in a Troop, but in a Cub Pack it is easy to lose track of those standards of operation due to leadership transitions.

 

CMJ

[evmori]

If by-laws are put in place to cover things like dues, meeting times, use of permission slips, etc. then they can be useful. If they are used in place of what the BSA has in place, then they could be redundant & possibly adding to the requirements. That's not a good thing.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[packwife]

The one boy who isn't progressing does show up, but that's it. It's social hour to him and nothing more. The SM won't say anything to the mom about it, but told me once that letting the boys go on an outing to the mall for Christmas shopping for their family was not an acceptable "scoutlike" outing. Even though my son said they could learn how to manage their money, he then told mine (SPL by the way) that the troop would have to write a 100 word essay on what they learned by shopping and that if one boy didn't do it, my son would have to write a 500 word essay on the importance of doing an essay. Beside the point, now how do I get across to the rest that bylaws are insane?

[FScouter]

"Why do something 12 times when you can do it once?"

 

Because by doing so you kill an opportunity to teach boys a life skill; the value of money, the honor of working to earn the money needed to pay for the things you need and the things you want to do.

 

When Mom or Dad write a check at the end of the year, the boy learns zip. Except maybe a sense of entitlement and that somebody else will pay for his ticket.

 

Ask yourself how annual dues paid by the parent supports the mission of Scouting.

[Lisabob]

I second the enforcement comments made by others here. Our troop has by-laws/procedures/things to know or whatever you want to call them. New scouts and their parents are required to sign off, indicating that they've read, undertand, and will follow them. Of course, the boys at least don't ever seem to have read them so I don't see a lot of utility there.

 

Some address practical concerns (ex: how to get a refund if you transfer to another troop) and I find those helpful. Some others address behavioral types of issues and I find these less useful because they are enforced sporadically. For example: scouts who have not attended x% of troop meetings and campouts in the last x months may not be allowed to participate in just-for-fun troop activities. (Now before anybody gets up in arms about attendance requirements, let me state that I don't care for this particular policy - but it is troop policy all the same.)

 

The problem with the above, depending on one's perspective, is either that it leaves no room for flexibility, or else that it leaves entirely too much room for flexibility. Further, it is not always enforced, but it is occasionally trotted out. When it is, scouts who will be stung by the policy typically view this as a foul play. (How could they have known the policy would apply to this activity that they really want to participate in, when it didn't apply to a previous activity? No consistency.) Some see it as a personal attack (SM or SPL or whoever just doesn't like me - that's why they're enforcing the policy this time, because they know it will impact me.). This is not a winning situation, no matter how you slice it.

 

If we're going to write policies that we have no intention of enforcing in the same, predictable way each and every time, then I'd like to ask why we're writing the policy down to start with.

 

Lisa'bob

[SR540Beaver]

Fscouter,

 

A troop needs a certain amount of money to operate on. Part of that money comes from dues. Rather than collect them on a month to month basis and hope the bucks show up, you collect the total year all at once. Often the boy has enough money in his scout account from fundraisers to pay his annual dues. That is being thrifty. He has put away money for needs down the road. The patrols determine their menu for each month's campout. The boy is still responsible for paying his share of the expense for each monthly outing since it can not be determined a year in advance like the dues can be. The boy is still learning the things you want him to learn in budgeting, saving and being thrifty. I never said to have mom and dad write a check and have the boy learn nothing. The issue I was addressing was dues for troop operating capital and the boy can still learn by putting away money to pay once rahter than each month.

[Cubmaster Jerry]

lisabob writes "If we're going to write policies that we have no intention of enforcing in the same, predictable way each and every time, then I'd like to ask why we're writing the policy down to start with."

 

Have you asked your committee this question?

[packwife]

Lordy, Lordy. I wish you all could have been there last night. The bylaws are 9 pages long, front and back. They cover everything from dues, participation in fundraisers, to how to wear the uniform correctly. They even want the cost of outings to be raised to pay for gas. The whole time I was sitting there thinking, "How are these helping?" Why can't things be simple? Like pay your dues on time or you can't come on the next campout? Behave yourself at meetings or you get "grounded" from the next meeting. Or how about participation in fundraisers are mandatory, no excuses? One bylaw stated that if school is cancelled during bad weather there is no scouts. Pretty easy to understand, right? They changed it to read "Scouts is cancelled if school is not in session, not to include the summer." I said I hope that they are smarter than that, do we really need to change it? Yes, I was told. Give me a break. I know that not everyone is going to agree with these laws. Do we make exceptions for the ones who don't want to pay extra for gas? I drive just about every time, but I don't feel someone needs to pay me because I enjoy doing it. Thanks for letting me vent here

 

[evmori]

9 pages of by-laws is 8 too many! There is no need to repeat what the BSA already has in place! I like your ideas, packwife.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10