Weblows, Klondike Derby, and Policy

[hotdesk]

To start off:

 

Three years ago our District cancelled the Klondike Derby because of cold weather (it is under 0 degrees and we live in IL). Then they decided to do it in June. Therefore, our troop put together a small Klondike Derby with many of the same activities and had it done by patrols. This worked out great, the scouts and scouters had fun, and it got some advancement done.

 

Somewhere around the same time a decision was made (either by our District, Council, or National) not to allow Webelows to participate at the Klondike Derby.

 

Then last night we had a den visit our troop and showed the parents a copy of our calendar through Febuary so that they knew what kind of activities we were doing. The parents saw the Klondike Derby and thought that it would be a great event to take part in. The Scoutmaster informed the Den Leader that this was not possible and then an Asst. SM mentioned that the troop could put together a Klondike like we did a couple of years ago.

 

So, my questions are: 1. Why shouldn't Weblows be allowed to participate in District Klondike Derbys and 2. Can the troop do this (I would assume so).

[SemperParatus]

A quick internet search shows that many Council and District Klondike Derbys include Webelos. There is no prohibition on a troop conducting its own derby. In fact, it is an excellent way to build patrol (and den) unity, teamwork and spirit without the firing of starchy projectiles through a PVC tube at 400 miles an hour fueled by ignited hairspray.

 

(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

[EagleInKY]

From those opposed to including Webelos in Klondikes, these are the two G2SS guidelines I've heard quoted:

- The Age appropriate guidelines stipulate that Camporees should be "visit only" for Webelos. Since the Klondike is a winter version of a camporee, the same prohibition should apply.

- The Age appropriate guidelines stipulate that Webelos should not participate in Winter Camping.

 

 

Personally, I invite our Webelos 2 guys to participate (overnight or just for the day) in our Klondike. I leave it up to them (their parents) to decide if they have the maturity and physical ability to handle it.

 

My reasoning is two-fold:

- One, the BSA does not specifically rule out Klondike Derby's, so I don't feel like I'm breaking any rules. Furthermore, I've found that the definition of "winter camping" varies from individual to individual. For me, harsh weather is temps in the teens or below. But for some, it's anything less than 40. Others may not want to camp any anything less than 50. While our Alaskan friends laugh at us for complaining about anything north of 0 degrees.

 

- Two, Webelos 2 scouts in Jan/Feb are just weeks from becoming full-blown Boy Scouts. In most cases, they've earned their AOL and are just waiting for the crossover ceremony. That's usually done in February (at B&G) or in March. I hate to tell a potential scout that he can't participate just because he hasn't gone through a ceremony.

 

 

As for safety, we go over Winter Camping basics with the Webelos before the campout. We try to make sure they have the proper gear. We'll loan them things if we can. For example, I always take some extra wool socks for the kids that show up with cotton.

 

Safety first: we have pulled up stakes and left after the competition the last two yeras. Two years ago the race took place during a freezing rain storm. After about five hours, the guys were totally miserable. Temps were expected to drop to around 20 degrees and a few inches of snow was expected. I and the other leaders (district and other troops) felt it was wise to call it, so we did. Last year we got about 4 inches of snow during the day, which was no problem. The guys loved it. Unfortunately, the temp was dropping to around 0 that night. I felt that was pushing it - even for me. Again, the district and troop leaders agreed to call it early. A few brave (foolish) souls braved the cold, but not this guy.

[hotdesk]

Even though I said we have done this before, I am always interested in ideas, and would like to know what type of activities you would do for a join Webelows/Boy Scouts Klondike as wekk.

[AwHeck]

In our council, Webelos can come for the day only at Klondike (no overnights for them)... they are allowed to camp overnight for the Camporee. In either case, they must come as a guest of a troop in that they are registered for the event through the troop, the troop is expecting them, etc.

 

Living in Colorado at 8,000 to 9,000 ft we take winter camping seriously. Our troop does a 5-6 hr Winter Camping Training session every year and our troop policy is that NO scouts can camp in tents during the months of November through April until they have been through OUR winter camp training. We enforce this for transfers into the troop as well as recently crossed-over scouts. We do have some cabin camping during the winter months so it tends to be only 2 or 3 campouts per year that are excluded if a scout hasn't made it to the winter training but this helps us ensure that our scouts know how to keep themselves warm and dry during the winter.

[Prairie_Scouter]

I think that the main safety concern is that the Web2's haven't been through winter camping training. We're in northern Illinois, the same as hotdesk, and so our winters can get pretty, well, interesting. I think at our District Klondikes the policy is that the Web's can visit for the day, but not stay overnight.

[LongHaul]

The guideline (as opposed to a bold type rule) advising that Webelos should not camp at Camporees was not (according to the information I was able to find when the guideline was first changed) a safety issue, National didnt want Webelos competing with Boy Scouts at Camporee events. The guideline about age appropriate activities concerning Webelos not participating in Winter Camping is a safety concern. Call it a Klondike or a Troop event if its Winter Camping, National feels there could be a safety concern. It all comes down to insurance, will your accident /liability insurance cover claims involving a Webelos on a Winter Campout? AwHeck mentioned that his troop had a five hour course to prepare for Winter Camping. If a Boy Scout attended the five hour training but didnt attend any other camping events should he be allowed to camp in Jan/Feb at 10degrees? Experience, IMO, is the key to the decision. If a Webelos2 crossed over on Feb 1 and the Klondike was Feb 10 and the temp was forecast for 10 degrees would any of us allow that scout to attend? Webelos dont camp once a month from September to January as preparation. They have not tested their winter sleep systems. IMO the are not Prepared. Class room/ Troop meeting preparation is great but until you have tested your theories they are still theories. Winter Camping can be very unforgiving if you are not prepared, what works for one person may not work for another. Klondike/ Winter Campouts are not the place to start.

LongHaul

 

[scoutldr]

EagleinKY posted, "Webelos should not participate in Winter Camping"

 

While I don't disagree that this is BSA/G2SS policy, what is the definition of "winter"? Does it go by calendar or by temperature? Winter in Miami is not the same as winter in Duluth. In my area, if we schedule a "Freezoree" in January, we are just as likely to have 70 degree weather as we are 30 degrees. There for a while, the "Freezoree" was a joke as it was warmer than the Spring Camporee in April. What with global warming and all, maybe we need to reconsider.

[EagleInKY]

scoutldr -

 

My point exactly. That's why we leave it up to the parents of the Webelos. We've had Klondike's here in Kentucky where the guys were wearing shorts! I don't think camping in 60 degree weather is a risk. In fact, it's safer than Webelos Resident Camp (which typically has temps well into the 90s). Each year it is a judgement call - depending upon the weather forecast, the maturity of the scout, and the level of preparation.

[Prairie_Scouter]

I believe that by BSA definition, "winter camping" is anything under 50 Degrees F. So, many of our Scouts have probably been winter camping without really even knowing it So, maybe we should call it "cold weather" camping, for sake of discussion. As most of us know, the game changes when it gets below freezing, or gets wet at slightly higher temps. I'd be really wary about allowing any Scouts, let alone Web Scouts, camp overnight in really cold weather without training. It can be a wonderful experience if you're adequately prepared. If not, tho, you could be toying with an inherently dangerous environment. As far as the Web2's at a Klondike, I'd let 'em come for the day and send them home to a nice toasty bed.

[LongHaul]

I've been trying to find a second reference to a BSA definition of Winter/Cold Weather camping. I know it's in the Okpik book #34040 but couldn't find another "quote" as back up. BSA defines Cold weather camping as "camping in weather where the average daily temperature is below 50 degrees Fahrenheit and conditions are cold, wet, or windy." It has nothing to do with Calendars or Latitudes.