Scoutmaster Discipline Problem

[scouter659]

I wonder if anyone can share any ideas or opinions on this one. Almost 2 years ago, a very dynamic assistant scoutmaster took over for the retiring scoutmaster of our troop. He has been with the unit for many years and was a natural choice among all of the leadership and committee that he should do the job. Hes a great people person and the boys loved the idea as well. His greatest strength is his ability to train junior leaders and that has resulted in better than average youth leadership in the troop. He is a really NICE guy but that is somewhat of a problem. During the past few years the general discipline of the unit has been on a slide. One of the unique problems we face is that the boys never misbehave when hes around so he never directly sees insubordination. He is aware of it and freely admits that disciplining is not his strong suit and he is about to reach out for help among the leadership. We want to keep him as scoutmaster and are just looking for ideas in support of him. Of course, its all even more complex than I can explain here but wed like to know what seasoned veterans think of the situation. The main thing is that we want to keep him as scoutmaster. He is a talented leader with so much more to offer just weak in the discipline dept. What do you think?

[SueM]

This is JMO, but if you have as strong of Jr. Leadership as you say, then it should be up to them to address this issue.

 

sue m.

[anarchist]

scouter 659,

hate to say it son, but except for tossing around the term insuboordination and a "general" side of "dicipline"...you have not given anyone here anything to think about...let alone comment upon....and then there is the "Keep him" comment? Whos gonna fire him and for what? Are you afraid of or just confused about "boy led"? the SPL and the PLC are the first line for unit dicipline.

sorry

anarchist

[John-in-KC]

By and large, agree with Sue!

 

There are a few things that require adult undivided attention: Any YP issue, theft, fire-play ... you can think of others.

 

Now, if we're talking about general youth rowdiness, then SPL, ASPLs and PLC need some tools in their toolbox. If it's an issue of SPL not receiving reasonable respect from the youth, then there may need to be some training in "a Scout is Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheeful"...

 

Sometimes a "good cop/bad cop" works well. Maybe one of the ASMs can be the guy who backs up the SPL. Leaves the SM free to do the things he's good at.

 

One observation: None of us are perfect. We form teams to deal with our strengths and weaknesses.

 

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

Well, I think one thing to remember is that the SPL is in charge of the troop. The SM's job is to help the SPL be successful. Sometimes that does mean having the SM step in a bit at times, but mostly it means having the SM stand in the background and provide helpful hints to the SPL, as needed. I'm wondering if the SPL really feels like he's in charge; he wasn't even mentioned in the original post. Maybe what you need isn't for the SM to provide more discipline; maybe what you need is for the SM to provide more guidance to the SPL on getting his troop under control.

[RedHonorScout]

Sounds as if this troop "hired" this SM when I here, "gee we really want to keep him..." and "insubordination".

 

This is a Boy Scout Troop, not the military or Halliburton. You didn't hire this guy for a salary. HE'S A VOLUNTEER, and, BTW, sounds like a great guy. These boys are fortunate..

 

I strongly agree with the esteemed comments above, the "discipline" needs to come down from the SPL and Junior staff.

 

Rather than toss around words and pass judgement, jump in and help this guy get his boy leadership structure in order.

[Kahuna]

Boy led troop or not, you need discipline from the adult leaders, otherwise the boy leaders are not only the first line, but also the final line. It won't work. If the SM is not a disciplinarian, fine. Not everybody is. No reason one ASM (we had one nicknamed "Mad Dog") can't be the disciplinarian.

[anarchist]

Kahuna,

 

Discipline...are we talking storm troopers stomping on active boys? I see nothing in the opening post that allows any real suggestions...remember the best position for a SM is the "standing back hands holding a cup of coffee and watching..." Scouter659 gave no concrete examples of the "slide" or the insubordination going on so what "may" youthful exuberence (appearing to many of us old geezers as chaos) may be a slide in discipline to scouter659...we don't know, do we?

 

Yes there are times that the Adults may have to step in but we have no "bill of particulars" to address in this thread and it would help as far as giving advice to know what constitutes "insubordination" and lack of discipline. The only time I have heard the word used in our troop was when (years ago) a committee member tried to influence a patrol election (purely, in his mind anyway, for the good of the troop) by "guiding" the nomination process (suggesting qualifications that were not endorsed by the PLC guidelines )and was asked by the outgoing PL to leave the patrol room because "thats not the way we do it here", IMO the boy might have been a touch inpolitic maybe even a tiny bit rude...but he was "correct" and his action was confirmed by the PLC and the troop committee (cost us a troop member and scouter-pride is a terrible thing sometimes), anyhow, my long winded point is unless you have examples why feed the unknown fire?

two cents worth

anarchist

[dluders]

As a Scoutmaster myself, I must say that the ASSISTANT SCOUTMASTER(s) should help provide discipline. The Scoutmaster cannot be everywhere, but (since all troops are SUPPOSED to have "Two-Deep Leadership") the other adult can help rein-in unruly Scouts. Yes, I realize that the SPL is supposed to be "in charge," but sometimes it takes an adult to restore order.

[eagle97_78]

As everyone has said scouting is a boy led program. The SM and ASMs' are only there to adviser and when needed they are to step in and help out with problems. The new SM & ASM fundementals training tells you this. If you need help you just need to turn to your leader training if you haven;t been then you might want to go and get trained it does seen to help a lot when you can turn back and refer to your training material,

[Eagledad]

>>Boy led troop or not, you need discipline from the adult leaders, otherwise the boy leaders are not only the first line, but also the final line. It won't work. If the SM is not a disciplinarian, fine. Not everybody is. No reason one ASM (we had one nicknamed "Mad Dog") can't be the disciplinarian.

[EagleInKY]

I agree with Barry (no surprise). The SM needs to model this behavior for all the leaders in the troop. Delegating the discipline do an assistant makes it look like that is not really important, and discipline is only enforced with that ASM is around.

 

I've seen troops where the SM is the biggest kid in the group. Some of these will have an ASM that does the discplining. But, in most I've seen, the ASM who does the discplining ends up going to another troop. No one likes to be seen as the "bad guy" by the boys all the time.

 

As much as I hate to do it, I am the first disciplinarian in the troop. (Don't confuse that with the first line of discpline, which should be the boy leaders). While I try to have fun with the guys, and certainly do, they know that there is a line they can't cross. The SM needs to lead this from the top, and use his assistants to support him and complement his personality/skills. We have one ASM we call "Tough Love", and he's earned that nickname several times. He's a stricter disciplinarian than me. I sometimes have to get him to back down a little bit. But when I'm not around, I know that old "TL" will make sure things don't get out of line. Then we have "Teflon". Nothing gets to him. The kids could be tying another kid to a stake and he'd say "aw, com'on guys, let's not do that now". He's fun to have around, but I'm always cautious if he's the only adult around.

 

The SM's primary role is to back up the SPL and the youth leaders. When they can't control the group, or have a particular discipline problem, that's when he steps in. When the boys realize that the adults will back up the SPL, they learn to listen to him much more.