What consitutes delivering "The Scouting Program"

[LongHaul]

In another thread it was asked What is a Scouter. In answering that question it was suggested that a Scouter is someone who lives the Scouting Program. Which prompted Define The Scouting Program.

Iknow we can all pull out a training manual and quote page and paragraph definitions. My question was prompted by the suggestion that; the Scouting Program was like art, I may not be able to define it but I know it when I see it.

Another forum member posted (Scouters) come in all shapes and sizes, but they all have the best interests of kids at heart. Some of them don't follow the program as published in the latest BSA training materials. Some of them wear uniforms that don't meet the current standards (especially true in Sea Scouting), and they don't all think the same way I do, but they have Scouting in their souls.

My question is; When do we cross the line between providing the Scouting Program and being just a youth group? Without quoting a National BSA publication what constitutes or are examples of providing the Scouting Program.

LongHaul (This message has been edited by LongHaul)

[FScouter]

Is is so bad to quote BSA publications? The "Scouting program" is defined by this organization and is printed in the publications. Without those publications to guide us, we're just a collection of loose cannons doing our own loosely connected visions of a youth program.

[bbng]

I'm not sure I can define the Scouting program without using what I've read and used from BSA publications. It is those things that don't fit within the parameters of the program as it is defined that would make a program something other than a Scouting program. There is so much available to help us as Scouters, and that makes Scouting easier for me as an adult leader and more meaningful and fun for the youth as Scouts. What I'm wondering is this: what is wrong with defining the program by using the program literature?

[LongHaul]

Nothing is wrong or bad about using the published materials but when we are limited by those materials to the extent that we cannot define what we do without them maybe we should step back and take a look at what we are doing. Have you ever proof read something and read over the same error because you don't "see" it even though it is there? When we use preset definitions and catch phrases repeatedly rather than our own words we sometimes drift from our course without realizing it. I was once told that "If it isn't in the training sylabus it shouldn't be included in the training." Are we to believe that who ever writes the National Publications are the only ones that understand "The Program" and when their views change everything else is "NOT The Program"? I'm looking for discussion and views on just what it is we spend so much of our lives trying to provide today's youth. The "Program" today is much different from the one I had delivered to me in 1960, even though our goals and methods have remained the same since 1911. I'm not knocking National, I sometimes disagree with them but as Bob White would quickly remind us we agreed to deliver their program and gave our word, in signing the adult app, that we would. It's their way or become a youth group, I support that. I'm just looking for some views from others who are supposedly doing the same thing I am, delivering program. Everyone of us can see differences in what we do and how we approach delivering program and how others do and see things. I'm looking for opinions.

LongHaul

[evmori]

Delivering the Scouting program is when we do our best to follow the Methods & Aims of Scouting while keeping the best interests of the Scouts at heart.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[anarchist]

 

 

(boy oh boy, he says as he warms up his two typing fingers)

 

I wonder, (a lot of things actually, like has FSouter become Mini-BW), But in this case perhaps we have entered into the trap of "real world" vs the "BSA perfect world". Personally, the farther from unit level scouting I get the less reality I see. (like all piramid schemes- the closer to the top you are the farther from real work and the real world)

 

Gosh, it would be nice if everything worked by the book and if every young man could/would be entertained and engaged by simply standing infront in a full "Class A" Uniform...reading from BSA manuals...but it doesn't "always" work that way...

 

I tend to be a "big tent" kinda guy...Each unit is gonna have its "warts" and if you overlook the twits you can usually find something of value in almost all "scouting programs". And when reading forum posts I am usually quite skeptical of the "facts" presented and the intention of all parties, I try not to try, convict and execute with my reply but probe the situation and offer real world ideas for working through the problem. The troop I am involved with generally operates the same way...so it's a nice fit...

 

We deliver a heck of a program, but I am sure we cross some lines, miss some methods and bend some rules as we go along...but I would go "head to head" with anyone who said because we missed doing it the way it says to on "line 47, para 12, page 10, of publication 1073 dated july 2004"...its not a good scouting program...thats just B.S.!

 

When listening to the "holier than thous" spout off about the Aims and Methods being the true path to the holy grail, I usually just grit my teeth and think..."that's nice". Perhaps CNYSoucter (in the originating threat for this thread) can't find any soul mates because he expects perfection (I don't know?) which (news flash!)usually does not exist. More likely he is still suffering from the increased blood flow from his BSA training and hasn't settled down yet...(who knows?).

 

But I continuely get a kick out of folks "newly arrived" into on going programs who don't like something, someone and stamp their feet and want it immediately changed to meet their expectations...and when it doesn't happen the BSA AIMS AND METHODS MANTRA begins....and its always the twits fault for not following the methods...And trust me, I have been there, done that and bought the tee shirt! I have spent the last nine years helping in a major effort turning a program, not around maybe, but certainly into a new direction. We rolled up our sleves and went to work from the inside and helped drag our troop into the 20th century (maybe soon we will enter the 21st?).

 

Unless I missed something Scouting is a volunteer "movement" that "owns" only the "program", not the units. And that it franchises out to Charter Organizations to run units as extentions of their youth outreach programs...

 

I would think, if you want perfection, you would put a paid BSA trained "robot" SM in each unit...Otherwise we are dealing with the short comings and flat out failures of the human condition (multiplied by a factor of two for each unit member). Delivering "THE SCOUTING PROGRAM" in many cases is doing your best (even if it doesn't meet the Methods and Aims police muster), to engage 10, 20, 60, 100 young men of wildly differing back grounds, ages and interest levels in a game of "how do we grow up Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly ...etc.", while building great experiences and memories and instilling a sense of patriotism and character...and having fun...(something BSA seems to be forgetting more and more every year).

 

Is our program BSA perfect HECK no! But we try. Are we delivering the scouting program...I think so, but some of the members of this forum might not. But as long as we continue to help "grow" good young men, and a stronger local scouting program, I am happy; (satisfied? no, but that's human nature), gotta go...is that the sound of the BSA Police knocking down the front door???

Anarchist

[Eagledad]

>>Is our program BSA perfect HECK no! But we try. Are we delivering the scouting program...I think so, but some of the members of this forum might not. But as long as we continue to help "grow" good young men, and a stronger local scouting program, I am happy; (satisfied? no, but that's human nature), gotta go...is that the sound of the BSA Police knocking down the front door???

[CNYScouter]

Am I looking for perfection? You tell me.

 

Back in the spring when I decided to go looking for a new Troop, I sent my DE a list asking him to identify a Troop in the district that has the following:

 

1) Scoutmaster that has been Wood badge trained.

2) Really understands and uses the Patrol Method.

3) Has 20+ active scouts.

4) is boy-lead.

5) has a good outdoor program.

 

How many of you have a Troop that fulfills these five characteristics?

How many Troops in your district do you know that can meet these?

How many of you can meet four of these?

 

I think these 5 characteristics show if a Troop is following the program or not.

In my District no Troop met all 5 of these and my DE could only point to 1 that had 4 (no WB trained SM)

 

Am I looking for perfection, no, however I am looking for a Troop that is trying to Do their Best to use the 8 methods of Scouting to reach the Aims.

I am just finding too many units that are throwing away methods but are still expecting the same results

In my experience, the closer the Troop is to be by the book, the more successful the Troop is.

 

Eagledad how did your successful older scout program differ from todays Venture Patrol?

 

 

 

 

[EagleInKY]

Amen Brother Barry and the Anarchist! You both had excellent posts.

 

Put me in the "I'll do my best to use the BSA system but tweak it for our particular needs" camp. By "tweak" I don't mean eliminate boy leadership, eliminate patrols, etc. What I mean is we will do what we have to do to be successful today, while always working toward the ultimate goal - that of fulfilling all the aims and methods of the BSA.

 

Since we are only in our third year, we don't have the older boys to worry about the venture patrol concept, but we are starting to think about it. I consider this one of those areas where we'll try some different things and see what works for us.

 

Some things in the past we did that weren't "by the book":

- Our first year we didn't have an SPL. We rotated the SPL duties between the two patrol leaders. Sometimes I had to act as the SPL, because the guys had no clue what to do.

- We have often ate meals on campouts as a troop. A patrol would do the cooking, but they would serve the entire troop. This works well when you're small and you have very limited equipment. As we've grown, we're doing much more patrol-based cooking now.

 

We made a number of concessions like these as we started out, and probably still do some today. But the goal is still in mind, and it seems closer all the time. Are we delivering the "Scouting Program". You betcha. And I'll gladly take on anyone who says otherwise (in a cheerful, friendly and courteous way, of course).

[bbng]

Put me in the "I'll do my best to use the BSA system but tweak it for our particular needs" camp. By "tweak" I don't mean eliminate boy leadership, eliminate patrols, etc. What I mean is we will do what we have to do to be successful today, while always working toward the ultimate goal - that of fulfilling all the aims and methods of the BSA.

 

Ok, I did a poor job of saying what I was trying to say. Not all aims and methods will all work all the time as there is growth and goal-setting (as evidenced by the above quote). What I see in this is that the program appears to be evaluated by using the BSA literature. What I personally find troubling is when units decide to blow off the BSA program in favor of their own way of doing things. This is usually evidenced by the units that say they don't need the G2SS because it cramps their style, that plan trips on non-BSA property without filing a local tour permit in order to have a "better trip", that find all training a waste of time. That tends to show up by hearing and seeing youth having fun but not in leadership, not advancing, not very active. I've seen evidence of this, and it's referred to as the camping clubs. The problem there is that there is no effort to follow the program. The leaders adjust the uniform to make it comfortable/affordable for themselves; the youth follow suit. The patrol method is written off because "it doesn't work for us" or "our guys don't know how to lead", and the problem there is the adult leadership isn't training the youth to lead and then letting them succeed and fail. Perfection takes a lot of energy and time, and even with huge amounts of both, it usually isn't reached--and as a perfectionist, I know it's no fun to aim for perfection. But to set goals by using all that BSA has made available makes it easier to run a troop or pack (I've no experience with a crew), and even in doing that, each unit will have it's own personalities which lead to varying ways of seeing Scouting in action. That is one of the things I love about Scouting: seeing youth actively involved in service, leadership, team work, outdoor activities that they have planned, that they have carried out, that they often fail at but that's ok because the adults support them and they get to try again. The outcome, in this type of atmosphere, is that the youth grown into adults of strong character and have fun along the way.

 

LongHaul, I'm sorry if my post put you on the defense (it seems it may have?), but I know that when I describe the units I'm involved with that are truly Scouting units, it is because they are doing those things I've heard and read in training and the BSA literature.

[Hunt]

I think there are a number of layers to this particular onion--it's been unpeeled many times in these forums. Let me suggest a few points:

1. When people say they "tweak" the program, you have to look carefully at what they are "tweaking." It's one thing to say that a troop didn't have a New Scout Patrol because there were only two new scouts, and something very different to say that the troop goes paintball shooting because they think the rule in the Guide to Safe Scouting is stupid.

2. In my mind, the program has levels. At the highest levels are the Scout Law, and the broad methods and aim of Scouting. If you try to tweak those, it's a fair criticism that you're not delivering a Scouting program.

3. At a parallel level or even higher are safety and child protection rules. You just can't tweak these.

4. At the next levels are the more fleshed out details of how the program is to be delivered. Things like proper uniforming, doing advancement the right way, working through the PLC, etc. These things are important--but some level of deviance from them doesn't mean you're not doing scouting. It may mean that you're not doing it as well as you could or should be. I suggest that you have to look at the aggregate--if a troop is "tweaking" one element--say, they allow blue jeans as part of their "Class A" uniform, you may criticize them for that while recognizing that they are still delivering the essential program. If on the other hand, they are "tweaking" a lot of these things--i.e., blue jeans, no patrols, scouts on BORs, retesting at BORs, SPL appointed by adults, financial issues, etc., etc.--then you can legitimately ask if they have strayed too far from the program to really claim that they are delivering it.

5. At the next level are things that are prescribed by BSA but that aren't very important. I would include some minor uniforming issues here (i.e., putting the Tot'n Chip on the pocket flap). If you tweak these, some people will "tut, tut" but it's not likely to be a big deal.

6. Finally, there are all kinds of program helps and suggestions that are optional, but that can enhance the delivery of the program.

Bottom line, I think when somebody says he is "tweaking" the program, it makes sense to ask whether he is tweaking any of the fundamentals, or if he's tweaking a whole lot of the other elements of the program. If he's not, you can still urge him to do it the BSA way, but it's not fair to say that he's not delivering "the program."

[SueM]

anarchist,

 

Exactly! We are taught(and teach) at BSLT "If it ain't broken, don't try to fix it!...meaning that many well functioning troops have been ruined by well meaning, newly trained adult leaders who come in and want to immediately "fix" thing that they think are wrong or that are "not by the book"! While there's nothing wrong with opening up the discussion of perceived issues within troops, most times it's not a good idea IMO, to make mass -immediate- changes.

 

Sue M.

 

>But I continuely get a kick out of folks "newly arrived" into

>on going programs who don't like something, someone and stamp >their feet and want it immediately changed to meet their >expectations...and when it doesn't happen the BSA AIMS AND >METHODS MANTRA begins....and its always the twits fault for not >following the methods...And trust me, I have been there, done >that and bought the tee shirt! I have spent the last nine years >helping in a major effort turning a program, not around maybe, >but certainly into a new direction. We rolled up our sleves and >went to work from the inside and helped drag our troop into the >20th century (maybe soon we will enter the 21st?).

 

[Eamonn]

Hi LongHaul,

While I know that you don't want the "Book Answer" I don't believe that you can deliver the program without having the books.

I happen to really think that most of us know when we are not following the program.

I like the Vision Statement and really like the idea of Offering young people responsible fun and adventure.That's why they joined in the first place! I tend to look at that as the "Game" and the other stuff that the vision and mission statement brings up as the "Purpose".

I liked the welcome to the Boy Scouts Of America that Ben Love wrote, but page one of todays Boy Scout Handbook does a good job.

A lot of the things that we tend to get stuck on or see as hang-ups?? Are in fact tools that we should be trying to use to get to where we are going.

Right now we have just started a Sea Scout Ship, the Lads do not have uniforms and there is a lot of things that we should be doing but aren't. All of these things are known and are goals, some will be reached fairly quickly, some may take years and some may never be perfected, but we are doing our best. We are playing the game and like most units using a stealth approach to ensure that the other important part of Scouts and Scouting is "Up there" and getting through that part of course is the purpose.

I'm not sure why? But a lot of us seem to so worried the consequences of not doing things right or by the book, but in reality the real consequences can only be seen through the youth we serve.

It would seem very obvious to me that when we talk about "Invisible Scouts" that the youth we are trying to serve don't think that the program offers enough fun and adventure and whatever we are doing isn't working.

When I see Eagle Mills that hand out Merit Badges that are without merit, we have put the purpose on the very back burner with the burner out.

Some people think that the program doesn't go far enough and they feel that they need to add bits and pieces to it. I don't think they do this because they want to be mean. Some do it because they just don't know that it's not right and some do it because they think that they are right. In most cases the youth we serve will decide if they want to accept or refuse these "Add-ons". If they refuse and quit because of them we end up delivering nothing to no one.

A lot of what the youth see as the Scouting Program is the delivery person. The Adults that are there week in and week out, these people are the BSA to that kid.

We all may have different reasons for doing what we do for Scouts and Scouting. Some people have great skills that they want to share and pass on. Some see working with Scouts and Scouting as them doing their little bit to save the world. Some people are like me they just enjoy the company of both the youth and the adults that Scouting attracts and a few of us have been around so long that we can't imagine life without Scouting. Still in the eyes of the youth we are Scouting what we do and what we offer is to them the Scouting program. How we present it and how we make use of all the resources that are out there is in our hands.

Eamonn.

 

[evmori]

Anarchist & EagleDad are right on the money!

 

If we all strive to do what is best for the Scouts in our units how can anyone fault us? Probably because we had white non official BSA socks on when we were in uniform or because we don't use the NSP. Oh well! No one is perfect! If we continue to do our best in teaching the Scouts in our units to make moral & ethical decisions we are Scouting!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[anarchist]

CNYScouter,

 

hi, wasn't trying to bust your chops just addressing the spin-off question with limited knowledge of your situation and concerns...

 

Your last answer was about troop requirements rather than about what do we look for in (good) Scouters.

 

so lets look at your "troop requirements":

 

SM - Woodbadge Trained...Why? Is it a "magic" type thing?

 

Lets see...in nine years I have seen four SMs one was burning (burnt out) when we came to the troop, one was just a fill in 'til someone else stepped up('bout 13 months) and the last two have been great...our "newbie" SM only six months on the job is being mentored by the last SM, who I would "stack" up against any Woodbadge trained SM in the country...I truely feel my boys were blessed to hike along-side this man for a while(and if you knew me...you'd understand the word "blessed" rarely rolls off my tongue). Is he perfect? ...no, but he is great with boys and Eagle himself and a realist...(and he loves to be outdoors.)

 

Really uses and understands the patrol method...

 

great! we have been working on this for nine LONG years...and it is still hard...but would I let that stop me form joining a troop that was working well and most important that my sons felt good about...probably not...and besides, you could always slowly educate and influence the troop to evolve...unless you just need everything "handed" to you...painlessly. (wouldn't it be nice!)

 

Has 20+ active scouts...

 

many many troops are small..it doesn't make them bad

The first few meetings My sons attended had a grand total of fifteen scouts and that included the five boys that crossed with my oldest son...we are now 58 registered scouts (it was sixty but one left for martial arts and my youngest just resigned from scouting after "star"...'cause he doesn't want to do the scouting thing... go figure). Point is we (together) built the troop up (so much so that we created a whole new set of problems and we had to find a new CO...)So IMHO Size does not reflect quality...

 

Is boy led-

 

admiriable...and a lot of work...we started in this troop "that was boy led"... if having the SM do all the work and planning then dictate what was going to happen to the SPL for execution...it seemed to work, but heck, we slowly changed that also... I will say that the Old troop's "Boy led" was a whole lot less work than our current version...each year we sweat bullets training the new SPL and the PLs...and scouts. I just sat in on a PLC and it was painful watching the SM have to drag out each point of the monthly plan from the new SPL and hint and suggest and walk this young man through the meeting...the old way was SSSOOO MUCH easier...but it is not what we wanted for this troop so we train and train and train some more...some years are better than others but it never is "easy", and you are never really finished.

 

has a good outdoor program-

 

best requirement I can see here...My kids both loved the idea of the troop's canoe trips 12 to 15 campouts and camp service projects, and especially the annual PAINT BALL WEEKEND...

Man! Did I become "Mr. Hard ---" when we deep sixed the Paintball...but we added caving, hiking, long distance biking, beach camping a couple of new canoe trips, acquired a bunch of our own tents, canoes, trailers and a sail boat...but, again it became what we were willing to "put into the program...

 

And CNYScouter I am really notbusting your chops here, I am just trying to say that (I think)you needed to look at everything and look hard before asking the DE for a "perfect" troop to interview. Most of us "scouters" like our programs have warts...but we still can be darn fine friends.

 

If it is not perfect(the program) can it be made better? Are you willing to put in the time and effort? Of course some of us just can not do the work and we really need the BSA program to be a "Baby Sitters of America"...spotlessly clean, a corporate model of perfection, wrapped in a uniform delivered on a silver platter...god, I wish!

 

Anarchist

(and the rest of you get off my side...it makes me real nervous)