Is this a Safe and/or Smart activity?

[Greeneagle5]

My son's Troop has an annual "Welcome To Scouting" program every fall(this weekend) for Webelos as part of their Troop recruiting drive. There are many fun and educational activities and demo.s such as a fire building contest, cooking demo (sampling the products also), archery, bb gun range (well supervised by trained scouter), etc, etc. Overall, a good program that has improved over many years. However there is one activity that makes me cringe everytime I walk by it. A 20ft.roped off circle where the young Webelos (and many older Scouts) throw hatchets at a stump or log target. As you may imagine, those sharp, heavy and dangerous blades don't always end up where they were intended. I've voiced my concerns and questioned how this relates to a BSA endorsed (safe)activity on organizers' deaf ears for years, finally just staying away. Seems like they feel that it's so popular, and it's been in the program so long with no serious injuries that it's OK............................"head in the dirt" syndrome ??

Should I just shut-up (as the SM implies)and work w/ the status quo ?

 

G5

 

 

[bbng]

The Guide to Safe Scouting contains an Age-Appropriate Guidelines sheet that is helpful for use in planning all activities. Here is the link to the form:

 

http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/ageguides.pdf

[kenk]

The Guide to Safe Scouting at http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/index.html discusses archery and BB gun shooting for Cub Scouts:

 

 

"... archery, bb gun range (well supervised by trained scouter) ..."

 

GTSS: Archery and BB gun shooting are restricted to day camps, Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, council-managed family camping programs, or to council activities where there are properly trained supervisors and all standards for BSA shooting sports are enforced. Archery and BB gun shooting are not to be done at the pack level.

 

I would interpret this to mean that archery and BB gun shooting involving Webelos cannot be done at the unit level (troop or pack), unless approved/managed by the council.

 

"A 20ft.roped off circle where the young Webelos (and many older Scouts) throw hatchets at a stump or log target."

 

The GTSS doesn't mention hatchet throwing or anything that is similar. A Google search did find example of scouts participating in hatchet & knife throwing - even at Philmont. My advice is to use the same GTSS guidance as for archery and BB gun shooting and get an OK from the council before holding such activity.

 

I also found on-line a scout-related description for an axe throwing setup. It is at http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/axe/axe_throwing.htm . They recommend a target at least 72" high x 20" wide made of 3" thick pine boards. They recommend a safety corridor that is 4' on either side of the centerline and extending 20' back from the target.

 

I myself would probably prefer a hatchet throwing range more like that of an archery range, where people are essentially kept behind the thrower.

 

Though the hatchet seems heavy & dangerous, remember that most second year Webelos are only 6-9 months away from becoming Boy Scout, and that Boy Scouts can shoot shotguns and rifles "under the direction of a certified instructor, 21 years of age or older, within the standards outlined in current Scouting literature and bulletins."

[ScoutNut]

The Age Appropriate Guidelines limit axes & hand axes (which is where a hatchet would fall into) to Boy Scout level & up. Webelos should NOT be throwing hatchets.

 

I would mention this activity to your DE & to the person who approves your Tour Permits.

 

As fun as this activity might be, hatchets are a tool, NOT a toy & your Troop should not be encouraging Webelos to consider them as such.

 

 

[Greeneagle5]

Thanks for the input on hatchet throwing.....my feelings were/are it's an unnecessary risk involving young kids that doesn't seem to teach a practical skill (very few of us find it necessary to throw tomahawks anymore for food or defense).

 

I've been down the bb gun range and Webelos issue before (I actually was involved in getting the guns, years ago, from the NRA). The on-site range supervisor is a Council shooting instructor which, according to him, makes it a District/Council sanctioned activity.

G5

[nldscout]

Hatchett throwing with the appropriate safty measure in place is not a banned activity. This is offer at our summer camps on our rifle range area.

 

If the council approves the BB guns and archery then it appears to be ok also.

[ScoutNut]

nldscout - Are these Boy Scout Summer Camps or Cub Scout Summer Camps?

 

 

 

[fling1]

Tomahawk throwing is a blast.

 

Our council used to put on a "Outdoor Action Expo" (previously known as "Family Jamboree") for the public as a showcase of scouting for the community to enjoy. It was a great event that has unfortunately gone by the wayside :-(

 

The tomahawk throwing station was always a big hit and available to all comers, any age, any gender, scout or non-scout. (There was also archery and BBs available on a similar basis. Better yet were the monkey bridges, rapelling tower, and 50' caving ladder: each of these was organized and run by a troop and the best ones had their scouts doing most of the work!)

 

The hawk range was handled in the same way as the BBs and archery -- controlled by adult supervision and a taped-off range. It never struck me as even remotely dangerous, the way it was run.

 

My advice? Think about the layout of the range, then quit worrying and enjoy the event.

 

- Derek (keep your wrist stiff and follow through!)

[SemperParatus]

Maybe Derek will volunteer to place the apple on his head

[Torveaux]

Our Council allowed this type of activity at the Webelos Jamboree this fall.

 

I had the same reaction that GreenEagle5 had. This may be OK for Scouts but it hardly conforms to safe activities that one would plan for Webelos. In fact, I would restrict it to Boy Scouts 13 and over (much like climbing a tall wall and such).

 

As for being "a blast", I hardly think that is a reason to include such an activity in a Webelos program. Many things may be "a blast" to 8-10 year-olds that we do not really want them to do at their age (if at all).

 

 

[Trevorum]

Is it safe? If there is a range set up as kenk suggests, and the activity has adult supervision, then yes, it is safe.

 

Is it smart? Yes! Tomahawk throwing is big fun for boys. Fun stuff doesn't have to be functional or a useful skill. If done in a safe way, it can be a great, showy activity to highlight the fun of Scouting to potental recruits!

[Trevorum]

Greeneagle,

Re-reading your post, your last question is, "Should I just shut-up ...? My answer to that is: Never! Never stop questioning whether an activity or event is safe or appropriate. It is our job to ask.

[Eagledad]

>>This may be OK for Scouts but it hardly conforms to safe activities that one would plan for Webelos. In fact, I would restrict it to Boy Scouts 13 and over (much like climbing a tall wall and such).

[scoutingagain]

I agree with others that this is an activity that can be done safely, under the right supervision and set up. Our scouts had an opportunity to do this at High Knoll and all enjoyed it, so did the adults that participated. However, these were all scouts that were at least 13 years old.

 

Based on the age guidelines in the G2SS, it seems if having Webelos participate in this event would be questionable. (But this certainly isn't the only area of the G2SS that provides questionable guidance.)

 

One word of caution though. If any unit does this, or participates in this at a camporee, summer camp or other venue, please emphasize to scouts this is one of those "Don't try this at home, or at least not without adult supervision." activities.

 

I agree anyone should feel free to ask questions, especially about safety concerns.

 

SA

[fling1]

Semper wonders:

Maybe Derek will volunteer to place the apple on his head"

Of the "dangerous projectile" activities: [bBs, archery, tomahawks], the tomahawks are by far the most challenging target weapon. Many, many people fail to hit any part of the target from 15'. And if the target is a big slice of oak tree (hard stuff!), you need a perfect throw plus some luck to make it stick. At the Expo I mentioned, they stapled a playing card to the middle to serve as the target. Nick the card with a stuck throw to win a prize. Not many prizes get awarded. So I'll pass on the William Tell duties, thanks anyway.

Several have questioned whether it is a good idea for kids <13 (or pick some other number) to try it? My wolf scouts were able to shoot BBs and archery when they were 7. No problems. These same kids can throw a hawk with the same kinds of safety considerations. But they probably won't be very successful.

A hard throw that takes a glancing bounce off the edge of the target can go pretty far in an unexpected direction, though. Greeneagle5 says a 20' circle of rope is their range -- that sounds like a minimum to me, especially if older boys are throwing hard. The danger comes from the stronger throwers, not the weaker ones. If you can trust a 7 year old to point his BB gun and his arrow downrange only, you can trust him to throw his hawk at the target and not at you.