Scout Membership - Would You Say No?

[CubsRgr8]

So, say you're a scoutmaster, would you say "no" to a boy who wants to (re)join your troop as a deathbed Eagle? The thread I spun this out of is an apparent example of this situation. Are there other circumstances that you would cause you to say "no" - the boy is a "known" trouble maker, or was dismissed from another troop, or has some disability so severe that you just can't cope? Nothing specific going on in my sons' troop, just a question that popped into my head.

[drakmund]

There are several reasons for saying "no" in many situations. A couple examples where troop leadership has said "no" for rank advancement:

 

- The scout was the troop bully, pushing around and intimidating other scouts. He was denied his Eagle because of the "scout spirit" requirement.

 

- A scout going for Star rank was causing problems at scout camp, he barrowed another scouts fishing gear without asking and that scout didn't have his gear for class. The scout also refused to do anything adults asked of him and even went fishing(instead of going to waiter duty) while the rest of the troop was cleaning the campsite. He was told "no" and he would have to prove himself over the next couple months to get Star.

 

- First year scouts going before the board having forgotten everything they learned about scout skills. The questions asked were "why? how would you use? etc?" They were directed to the troop guide who did a review with them and later passed the board the next month.

 

 

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

I've dealt with this before. The problem with saying 'no' is that in order to remain consistent, one must establish criteria by which 'no' is the answer. That usually involves identification of a standard that must be met. And then applying that standard to everyone. I believe the program already has that standard. It is found in the requirements for membership and then advancement. I would encourage anyone not to change that standard.

So my simple answer is: if a boy asks for this opportunity, I would allow him the opportunity. I can't think of a situation in which I wouldn't. He can then succeed and that would be great. Or he can fail, but that will be up to him. At least give him the opportunity to do that.

[SemperParatus]

A couple years ago, we had a boy and his mother come to a meeting with the intent to join our troop. They were in the process of leaving another troop whose SM is a good friend of mine. He had been telling me about recurring problems he had been having with the scout and the mother (very disruptive, unscoutlike behavior, mother screaming at leaders in public, etc.) The boy came to our troop meeting with spiked-up goth hair, make-up, chains, etc. - I suppose he was trying to make a good first impression. I politely suggested to the mother that they should strongly consider other troops, and dropped the name of my SM friend telling her how our troops are very similar. She got the hint and moved on down the road.

 

As far as a 'deathbed eagle', I would probably look to have a lengthy discussion with him beforehand to understand the situation and his motivations. With that understanding, a decision could be made in the best interests of the troop and the scout. I would not be adverse to saying 'no' in certain instances where the boy (or his parents) are just looking for a super-accelerated eagle rank and a quick bye-bye.

 

Since our unit's inception slightly over 4 years ago, our unit has had a policy that guarantees a spot only for crossovers from our affiliated pack and congregants of the CO church. The TC put this policy in place to avoid explosive growth that could potentially outstrip resources (our troop now has approximately 55 scouts, but could easily have grown to over a 100 in 3 years based on the number of interested phone calls I received from ). This policy has allowed us to be somewhat selective in taking in boys that do not necessarily meet the affiliate pack/CO member criteria.

[EagleInKY]

"Since our unit's inception slightly over 4 years ago, our unit has had a policy that guarantees a spot only for crossovers from our affiliated pack and congregants of the CO church."

 

We have the same policy. We allow others to join, but we say that there is a two month try-out period (hate the term "probation period"). If, for any reason, the troop or the family doesn't think it will work, we refund their troop fees and let them walk away with no hard feelings.

[SemperParatus]

EIKY'mon~

 

I like the 2-month trial idea. Have you ever had to pull the plug on someone? If so, is that a TC or SM decision?

 

~Semper dude

[Eamonn]

I hope that we never forget that we are here to serve our youth.

Eamonn.

[bbng]

I would hope that a boy who wants to join a troop and wants to earn Eagle would have that opportunity. It doesn't sound as though there is any reason in this thread for denying a boy what he wants--the chance to go for it.

[firecrafter]

I'd sure like to hear your thoughts on our situation...

 

One of our ASM has been causing problems in the Troop for sometime. Things have recently come to a full boil. The ASM showed up at a meeting with a young man who he introduced to everyone as "our newest Scout". The SM had not met the young man or his parent(s), nor signed a Scout application. The ASM submitted his application to council without saying a word to anyone (ASM signature where the SM normally signs). This new Scout will be turning 18 in just 2 months. He is a giant hulk of a boy/man with a full beard! He has been at two Scout activities, and was seen smoking in clear view of the adults and Scouts at both. SM saw him and also several Scouts brought it to the SM's attention. No one can figure out why this young man with no previous Scout experience would join a Troop this late in the game.

What say you in this instance?

Thanks!

firecrafter

[SemperParatus]

Very strange for a 17 year and 10 month boy to join boy scouts for the first time.

 

Is someone talking to this ASM and scout to understand what is going on?

 

After two smoking incidents, the SM needs to be on this boy about BSA rules. If I were SM, I would simply tell the scout that one more smoking incident is strike three, you're out.

 

Not knowing what are all of the issues with the ASM, but if he is causing that many problems, then the CC/COR should remove him from adult leadership.

 

 

[firecrafter]

The SM has met with the ASM to discuss the issues many times. He called in the CC and the UC on the new Scout/smoking issue. The bottom line is that both agree with the SM in private, but are unwilling to publicly make the hard calls. The ASM admitted that he allows this young man to smoke on Venture outings, a separate unit from ours. He also told SM that he informed the Scout he was allowed to smoke as long as he was away from other Scouts. ASM was set straight on that. The UC and CC advised the SM that now that the Scout is registered he is SM's problem, "his call". The SM is left with several difficulties. First, a SM conference with a near man, to explain what BSA is about. This is something that typically happens BEFORE a Scout joins, and would have, had the SM been made aware of the young man's interest. Next, there are practical matters. In a Troop made up of Scouts mostly between the ages of 11-14 what do you do with a Scout that has no experience but is nearly 18. Normally at his age he would be leading. You can't put him in the new Scout patrol with 11 year olds. Will he accept the leadership of Scouts much younger than himself? How does a smoker go an entire weekend without a cigarette while camping? How does the SM explain this young man to concerned parents? I see many areas of potential conflict.

The CC and the UC also refuse to make a call on the matter of this ASM. Because of past abuses the CO has already considered asking him to step down. The UC and CC seem to want the CO kept out of it at all costs. The SM feels that our Troop reflects the reputation of the CO, as well as his own. He maintains a good relationship with the COR and the IH.

The SM is a good man. I believe he will make those hard calls. I know the CO and the IH supports him and will stand with him. I will support the SM too, but I am a "nobody" in the group.

It has been discouraging, to say the least, to watch the other leaders seem to pay lip service to Scout principles but refuse to share responsibility for making decisions. I feel for the SM. Thanks for reading!

firecrafter

[Hunt]

If he's turning 18 in two months, he can't be a youth member of the troop after that, and it's up to the CC to decide if he'll be accepted as an adult member. I would suggest that you just make sure the SM and CC know they don't have to have him after that, and just cool it until then.

[EagleInKY]

Semper dude. Sorry I missed your question, just stumbled upon it today.

 

We haven't pulled the plug on anyone yet. We've had five of these in the past two years, and all have stayed. There is one we thought long and hard about this year. He's totally new to scouts. He's very smart, but has no social skills whatsoever. Dad "mothers" over him like no one I've ever seen. It's actually kind of scary. He doesn't come to a meeting or a campout if dad isn't there with him. The other adults spend most of our energy trying to peel dad off of him. I've been really tempted to ask if Scouting is really what they want for their son, because they are having a difficult time letting go.

 

As for the decision, we've always felt it was the decision of the SM and ASMs, since we're the ones who have to work with them. But we'd give the Committee Chair and COR a heads up.

[SemperParatus]

Thanks, 'mon.

 

firecrafter,

Sounds like 2 heads (COR and SM) of the three-headed beast are at least on the same page. Your CC needs to understand that the COR can pretty-much call the shots when it comes to adult leadership selections.

 

The UC is basically a bystander in this situation, so it sounds like he is doing his job. Although, trying to keep the COR out of the situation does not sound like a good move on his part.

 

[FScouter]

firecrafter - from your comments about the unit commissioner, it almost sounds like he's a member of the troop committee. How was your UC selected? Is he commissioner for any other units?