Legal issues: When a pack dies

[joefloyd]

Due to numerous issues with the country's worst council, our pack has died. Unfortunately, even though we had over 50 kids last year (and celebrating our 25th yr), we had no support from parents or council and it was run solely by myself and my husband. Council terminated my membership for speaking my mind (and the truth), and since, my husband (an Eagle Scout), lost his passion for scouting. Our pack died when we stopped. Some kids switched to other packs, and others quit scouting due to the events that took place.

Since we ran the pack, all of the belongings are still in our possesion. What happens when a pack dies? Where does the money go from the checking account? Where do the belongings go? We have over $500 worth of pins, badges, beltloops, books, uniforms..... you name it. We also have a 4-lane alluminum track.... Anyone have some answers, that dont include donating it to council?

[TheScout]

You have only one option. Give it to the CO. Its their property.

[Hunt]

There's another thread about this in the Progam board: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=114077

 

But TheScout gave you the basic answer. The pack's assets actually belong to the Charter Organization, and the CO gets to decide where they will go. The CO can send them to another unit or can hold them with the idea that it may try to restart the unit at a later time.

[joefloyd]

Our CO is a church (our church)..... What is a church suppose to due with uniforms, pins, badges, and books?

[scoutldr]

Rules and Regulations, Article XI, Section 1, Local Council and Unit Finance Clause 2, Disposition of Unit Funds Upon Termination of Local Council or Unit

 

(b) Unit Obligations. In the event of the dissolution of a unit or the revocation or lapse of its charter, the unit committee shall apply unit funds and property to the payment of unit obligations and shall turn over the surplus, if any, to the local council, if there is one, or if there is no local council, dispose of the same in accordance with the direction of the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America. In the case of a chartered organization, any funds or equipment which may have been secured as property of the unit shall be held in trust by the chartering organizaiton or the chartered local council, as may be agreed upon, pending reorganization of the unit or for the promotion of the program of the Boy Scouts of America.

 

© Administration of Local Funds by Corporation. Any property or funds acquired by the Executive Board upon the dissolution of a Scouting unit or local council shall be administered so as to make effective, as far as posssible, the intentions and wishes of the donors.

 

(d) Special Funds. Special funds created for specific purposes, acquired by a unit or local council, shall be vested in a bank, trust company or BSA Intravest Trust, in trust for the use of the unit or the local council, in accordance with the wishes of the donors, with the provision in the statement of the conditions governing the admiinistering of the funds that in the event of the dissolution of the unit or council or revocation or lapse of its charter said trustee or trustees will, after satisfying any clams against such fund, turn over to the Boy Scouts of America the balance for use by the Boy Scouts of America for the benefit of Scouting in such locality and for the specific purposes for which the fund was granted. If there is no suitable opportunity for the use of said fund in such locality, it may be used elsewhere.

 

[joefloyd]

Well thank you for that last post, now you have totally confused me. I read the other thread on this same subject and everyone on there said it belonged to the CO. Our pack was in good standing and owed no money to the council. So I dont understand how that last post fit in with the advise from others on here

[Prairie_Scouter]

The wording from the Rules and Regulations is meant to cover a wide variety of situations, and as such, ends up being unintelligible to people looking for a simple explanation.

 

TheScout had the basic correct answer. Unless you've set up some legal entity to protect the unit assets (as Kahuna discussed in another thread), the property of the unit belongs to the CO. I would expect many COs would have no idea what to do with it, and you could probably work with the CO to find a suitable home for your unit's belongings. For instance, another unit that is well run and would make good use of the resources.

 

It's a shame that your unit has closed its doors. Sounds like it was a very healthy size in Scouts but woefully weak in adult support outside of you and your husband. Unfortunately, not an unusual situation.

[scoutldr]

As some here would have said, the Rules are the Rules...everything else is just opinion. In reality, the DE should sit down with the CO and ascertain their intentions of continuing their affiliation with the BSA. It is the DE's job to "talk a blue streak" to get them to maintain the charter and not give up the unit. If they intend to reform a unit in the future, the CO can retain the assets "in trust" for that future unit. If they have no such intention, the assets revert to the Council for use as they see fit. That's the terms of the Charter agreement that they signed when your unit was formed. Under NO circumstances do any of the assets belong to the Scouts or Unit leaders to do with as THEY see fit. If the CO wants to allow scouts to transfer their unit accounts (if any) to their new unit, that can be negotiated, I guess.

[Kahuna]

You might also just low key ask the CO to let you distribute the assets to the packs the boys have joined. If you don't make a big deal out of it and if there aren't thousands of dollars involved (if there are, you need a lawyer like me - please email me privately )the CO is really not going to care. I would not take time to explain the rules and regulations to them, they can read them if they wish.

 

Worst case scenario is 1-the council gets the stuff or 2-the CO keeps it in a storage room until some future janitor throws it out.

[packsaddle]

Don't worry about what a church is going to do with it, that's their problem. Just let them handle the disposition. Just curious, what on earth did you say that earned your dismissal?

[madkins007]

Badges, pins, etc.- I'd sell back to the Scout Shop and put the money in the account.

 

'Garage sellable' stuff- track, uniforms, etc.- with the COs permission, sell to other Scouters. Put money in account.

 

Money- turn over to the CO after repaying reciepts, debts, etc.

 

Pack supplies (books, etc. that the CO might not want, are not garage sellable, and cannot be returned) can be donated to the district/council or another pack with the CO's permission.

 

Rule of thumb- it is easier to store money than supplies and 'old' materials become dated or damaged easily. They are more useful being converted for cash and put in the hands of people who can use them.

 

 

 

As far as your terminated membership- I am so sorry. This has happened to people in our old council as well- and from what I know, it was for standing up for what was right (and according to official BSA policy) when a few higher-ups on the council wanted to go a different direction.

[Lynda J]

I have a question. If had close to 50 boys, but you had no parent support there was something else wrong. It isn't the Councils fault that your get parent support. That is the Committee and the leadership of the Unit.

I have worked in scouting as an adult for close to 40 years. I have never expected the Council to get my parents involved. That is my responsibility.

I have been in councils where there was all but NO support, but it never kept ME from presenting a good program for my Girl Scouts or Boy Scouts. Back in the days of Lone Troops a council didn't exist. It was totally up to the leaders.

If my current council never gave me another helping hand it would not cause me to not have a program for my boys.

So I have a hard time seeing how a "active unit of almost 50 boys" folded because of lack of council support.

 

[joefloyd]

Lynda:

 

Thank you for reading my post incorrectly. I never stated that my council directly caused the death of my pack. The problem was on a much larger scale. Without revealing who I am, I also had a much larger position within my district. During that time, I saw DEs and council management that ONLY cared about their bottom line and how much money they could get out of each parent. I cared too much for my friends and neighbors in my community to keep my mouth shut and made sure everyone knew what was going on, including local businesses.

 

When we took over our pack 3 yrs ago, it was on the verge of death and we literally brought it back to life. We had SOME parent involvement, but a very small amount. We gave our entire selves to our pack and district and everyone around knew it.

 

When the council kicked me out, I wasnt the only one who was upset. Quite a few packs boycotted events, most wanted the resignation of our DE, and it drew media attention. I cant even begin to tell you what it did to me. Since I had to leave the pack, most parents were furious with what happened and left as well. The others went to another pack, which we refered to them.

 

Dont lecture me about my responsibility in a pack. We DID do it right. The only thing I expected from my council was to put our boys first, just as we do. But they ( a non-profit organization) only cared about how much they could take from us. So, YES, I do blame them for the down-fall of a wonderful pack, as well as taking away my 7 yr-olds chance of being an Eagle like his dad.

 

I do still believe in scouting, just not with this council.

 

 

 

[Backpacker]

Sorry to hear about your pack, but it sounds like there is another side to this story we are not hearing. There have always been poorly run councils through scoutings exsistence yet the units always seem to manage to survive. It also sounds like you and your husband were running the pack all alone a one man show so to speak, I have seen this occur in other packs and they have always gone under. Did you have a truly functioning pack committee with at least five other adults? Did you have any other den leaders, besides the two of you? Was your CO involved with your pack, your COR and IH could have helped with the council. If your answer to these questions is no then the council was within their rights to ask you to step down since you were not following the BSA policies, program, and regulations. I know this sounds blunt but a maverick unit can and has caused many problems for the BSA. It sounds to me like you let your anger at council politics supercede the needs of your boys.

[Lynda J]

I hear many people say "I couldn't get help I had to do it all on my own." In my years of scouting I have discovered that when people get the impression that it is a "One Man Show". Why didn't your CO support you? If is their final decission as to who is the leadership of a unit.

I have been on the district committee 6 years and have only been involved in the removal of one leader. And she totally refused to abide by Safe Scouting Policies. The CO came to us about removing her. We had to go through lost of checks and balances before we removed her from the unit. We also worked with the CO to find new leadership. When I was working with Girl Scouts I was involved in the removal of one leader. She showed up at a troop meeting so drunk she couldn't standup. Then punched one parent when she was ask to leave.

 

I agree with Backpacker. There is another side to this.

There are 20 boys in my troop. All but two parents are registered and help. Those two have major criminal backgrounds and I don't want either on them anywhere near the boys. You can't do it all but if you present a front that that is how you want it parents won't come forward to help.