Undermining from Adult Leaders**LONG POST**

[scoutmom5]

Hi all. As you know from previous posts, I am relatively new to scouting. I am a Committe Member. My husband was an asst scout master, however due to the SM getting injured on an outing, my husband is now the new SM. He was the only one to step up and volunteer for the position (thinking it would be temporary). HIs official position took place in June 2005. He got to work quickly as he had to have the boys create the calendar for the year, and get it approved by the Committee. The boys were great, they were thoughtful and THRILLED to have this task. (a task we've read SHOULD be theirs)

There was much resistance from the beginning. It seems to me that the troop adults merely want a SM in theory, and were hoping my hubby to be a push over. My husband wants this to be a BOY RUN troop. However, the adults want to oversee and gently push the boys into certain directions. The boys unanimously did not want to participate in this year's Camporall. However, were out voted by the adults and committee chair along with some board members. The boys wanted to go for a weekend hike during the foliage color change. In the past this hike was in the winter, and they froze.

Being new, I have a few problems with this troop andn am not sure if I've a right to be upset, or need to get better educated.

Do to the adults pressing, the boys now have 2 outings for October, the Camporall and the weekend hike. I believe about 15 kids went to the Camporall out of 50. (Many went because their parents made them)These parents/adult leaders are very involved with the cub scouts,webelos etc. They believe, and I agree to a point, that we need to interact with the young ones to ensure they cross over to our troop, to keep it alive. Like I said, I agree. However it seems that we are catering to them. You wouldn't believe the shouting match over the Scout Sunday and following Pancake Breakfast conflicting with the Cub Scouts Blue and Gold weekend. We hold our meetings at a local church. On Scout Sunday the boys introduce the troop and invite the patrons to come to the following weekend Pancake Breakfast, for a nominal fee. The troop gets to show the church what they are about and mingle with the members. However since this conflicts with the Blue and Gold weekend some adults didn't want to thiink about it, Blue and Gold is where the Cub Scouts make their money! It took another month before the schedule could be satisfactory with the committee.

It's very tiring, and I for now DO NOT enjoy being on the committee. Personally I wouldn't mind if my husband stepped down. It has been nothing but a struggle since day one. From arguments from the leaders about bolo vs. neckerchief, to calendar problems, it's just too much!

thanks sorry, about the rambling, maybe I just needed to vent.

 

[rkfrance]

TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING for all the committee.

 

I'd also invite the UC in to have discussions with the committee.

 

BOY LED means just that. Sounds like you are on the right track, stick with it.

[orennoah]

Hang in there and support your husband. He's on the right track and will need all the help he can get.

 

I second the idea of bringing the Unit Commissioner into it. My UC (I, too, am a Scoutmaster) sat down with me after I became SM and we discussed what I needed or wanted from him and what he could do for me. Please encourage your husband to take his UC out for a meal, or even just a beverage, and discuss how they can best work together.

 

- Oren

[ScoutNut]

Webelos are the life blood of a Troop and you can NOT just "assume" that they will automatically sign up with your Troop because you share a CO or you are the most convenient Troop. Troops & Packs, especially the Webelos, should do as much interacting as possible. How else are they going to get enthused about staying in Scouting and/or joining your Troop?

 

It sounds like the Camperall was a great way to introduce Webelos to your Troop. Granted, forcing it on the calender was not a good thing, but it seems to me that both sides got what they wanted in the end. The Troop Committee got its outing with the Webelos, & did not force all the boys in the Troop to attend when they did not want to. It sounds like the only Boy Scouts who attended the Camporall had Webelos in their families or parents involved in the Pack. Hopefully they enjoyed themselves. The boys also got the hike they wanted. Absolutely nothing wrong with 2 events in 1 month!

 

The fight over Scout Sunday could have been averted by having all calendars (council, Church's, schools, packs, towns, etc) at your PLC's yearly planning session & taking them all into consideration. It sounds like the problem stemmed from committee members/leaders who had children in BOTH programs (Pack & Troop) & did not want to miss either event. I can understand & sympathize with that. It also might have been that the Committee felt that it would be a good thing to have the SM & some representatives of the Troop at the Cub Scout Blue & Gold to welcome new Webelos "Crossing Over" to the Troop. I know that one year no one from our Troop bothered to come to our Pack's B&G to welcome their new Boy Scouts & those boys felt unwanted & never finished out their 1st year with the Troop. After that we actively encouraged our Cubs to look elsewhere for a Troop that REALLY wanted them. It could also have been that in the month it took the Committee to approve the February shedule, they were also approaching the Pack's Committee trying to get them to change the date of their B&G. They just never told you about it.

 

BTW - What do you mean that B&G is where the Cubs make their money? A Blue & Gold is a celebration & Pack Meeting not a money earning project.

 

 

Sounds like all adults in the troop need some refresher training.

[scoutmom5]

I agree that the webelos are a vital aspect to the troop. Most of the adult leaders involved have no children in younger packs, the only one I can think of is the Chairman however their kids are former cub scouts. My husband's main goal at this point in time is to revitalize the boys' morale. I've had many parents tell me that their boys are on the verge of quitting, stale meetings etc. With a troop of over 50 members keeping them active and happy is a great task. We have about 8 fathers that come to every meeting. Some parents have commented on the fact that in the past they sit at the table in the back and talk, drink soda (the boys are forbiddend to drink or eat at the meeting)read the paper, etc. I have stopped going to many meetings because I'm sick of hearing complaints, gripes and watching the eyes roll during meetings. The BOR's are painful. 9 times out of 10 they are tested on knots, cpr,plant and animal wildlife and so on. Tenderfoot and 2nd class take up to 1/2hr to complete. It was my understanding that this event is to find out how the child feels about the troop, what does he need help on, what would he change if he could, what are his goals>

Like I said, it's getting old FAST. We have a specific ASM that deals with the Webelos and fosters them into the troop with input from the SM. My husband's goal is to make this a boy run/led troop. I know like any project this will take time, the boys are hungry for it. It 's the adults that are dragging their feet.

I also agree that the scouts should be involved with the packs, we have several that are leaders in the packs, we have a yearly family camp out that is expressly hosted for the up and comings, by the troop. My husband has a much thicker skin than I but even he is growing frustrated. he feels like he's swimming upstream every week.

Hopefully this weekend hike will lift his spirits, he LOVES the outings with the kids.

 

 

[SemperParatus]

scoutmom5,

 

It sounds like you have a crew of some difficult adults, each with their own ideas and with the misunderstanding (fueled by past experience) that they can impose their own plans on the troop. It is no wonder both you and your husband are feeling frustrated.

 

Here is what I would do if I were in your shoes:

 

1. As SM, meet with the CC for a long meeting to hash out the future direction of the troop. The discussion shouldn't be about what trips are planned for the next couple months, but rather, the vision and culture of the troop and the long range plan of where the troop is expected to grow (in terms of skills, character, opportunities, etc) over the next several years. The SM and CC need to be on the same page in virtually all matters with respect to the troop. The SM must have complete confidence that the CC will support him in his efforts to develop and implement the overall troop program that will support opportunities for leadership, advancement, character growth, and fun. The CC must have complete confidence in the SM and his staff to do what is right by the boys by providing the scouting program promised. The CC must be prepared to reign in the 'over enthusiasm' of the adults to allow the boys to succeed on their own (and make mistakes as well), essentially to run interference for the SM especially during the transition period. If your husband and the CC cannot get on the same page on this issue, then your frustration will continue to grow.

 

2. Training. It sounds like all of the adults should take advantage of the training opportunities available to gain a greater understanding of how a troop should function. Even if they have had training before, a refresher is in order. Attend the training as a group, so everyone can hear the information at the same time and then discuss its application to your unit soon thereafter.

 

3. Develop a relationship with the CM and CC of the pack. Mesh your calendars now to ensure that conflicts do not exist. Look for ways to support each other through joint activities (trips, a scouting expo for your CO church, etc.), utilization of trained den chiefs, service of scouts at cub events (PWD, B&G). Troop recruitment of cubs should not be the tail that wags the dog, but rather an integral part of the overall scouting program offered by your CO. Its not about absolutely having to do that one joint event together or else, but rather, creating a scouting atmosphere where cubbies see boy scouts in action frequently and the boy scouts developing a sense of caring for younger scouts and sharing what scouting means to them.

 

4. Throughout the transition, keep it professional and friendly with the adults. Screaming and yelling should never be tolerated. The SM and CC must make that abundantly clear. If emotions show a sign of beginning to run hot, then people have to be told to either conduct themselves in a scoutlike-manner or leave the meeting.

 

5. As SM, do not be strident with the attitude that 'I am going to fix all of the problems you adults have created and make this a boy-run troop now'. This will be a long process (plan on a year, provided all the stars align in the right direction) and will surely tax your patience, dedication, compassion, and understanding. There will come times when it will be frustrating (esp with adults) to the point of wanting to quit, but there will also come times (esp with the boys) when things click and all the effort seems well worth it.

 

Best of luck to you, your husband and especially, your son.(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

[Eamonn]

If I were on the Troop Committee, I would be behind your Hubby 100%.

Sure having our Webelos Scouts cross over and join the Troop is important. But if we don't have a Troop where the Scouts are really Scouts why bother?

I don't know what a Camporall really is? But I'm guessing it's some kind of Camporee? I'm all for Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts camping, but the program has to be a Cub Scout or Webelos Scout program.

As everyone knows I hate the cold and yes I'm a real woozy about it and I have never camped in Illinois, but taking Webelos Scouts camping in October seems very risky to me.

Your Hubby needs to find out when or if the SM will be returning? Contact the District Training Team and see if they can present the Committee Training ASAP!! Invite your UC around for a drink and go over what is working and what isn't.

While a good and working relationship with all the packs in the area is important. The Troop is in the business of serving and delivering the Scout program to the Lads in the Troop. Imagine if all the Scouts in the Troop quit -Then where would the little guys go?

Don't give up the faith. Go to the next fun activity that the Troop is doing. Sit back and watch them have fun while they learn stuff. If you still really think that you are not in the right place? Then the time to quit is upon you.

Eamonn.

[John-in-KC]

I noted one thing. Boards of Review are not TESTING OPPORTUNITIES. They are chances for adults to interact with the youth, to get his input on the direction of the Troop, to make sure the values of Scouting are setting down in him.

 

That said: If there IS a question on whether a Scout has mastered a specific skill, there is always the option of adjourning the BOR while the Board seeks input from the SM and the person who signed off. If, after that, there is genuine doubt by the Board about mastery of a skill, there is always "A SCOUT IS TRUSTWORTHY." Put the young man on his honor, and delve into what he did in that skill. Most Scouts will see the light all on their own

 

 

 

[CA_Scouter]

This is certainly a group of out of control adults. Training is needed, definitely. I've had problems with some of the adults in my troop and how I handled it was to communicate my vision to the troop and adults clearly, concisely, and politely. I really put the onus on the adults, for example, I outlined my expectations that the scouts conduct themselves as gentlemen at all times, and that they could use their parents as role models. ( hint, hint ). Then for those parents that were most difficult, I asked them to work on special projects, run a skillbase, or something like that, so that they would have to contribute and get out of their ego trips.

 

I also had plenty of reference material from BSA on how meetings should be run, what skillbases to do, etc.. any objections, I just 'showed 'em the stuff' and they quieted down.

 

In a very nice way, I communicated to them to 'put up or shut up'. That if they weren't willing to put in the time, their opinions would carry no weight.

 

Finally, just because someone has an opinion, doesn't mean you, as a leader, have to listen to it ( or entertain it ). Opinions are like belly buttons. Everyone has one, but they do nothing and serve no purpose. If you have the training and the vision for a properly run troop, then you have the correct platform to stand on, so stand your ground and make it right!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[scoutingagain]

"You wouldn't believe the shouting match over the Scout Sunday and following Pancake Breakfast conflicting with the Cub Scouts Blue and Gold weekend."

 

I really don't know what to say other than I don't have the patience for the behavior described above among scouts let alone adults. Our unit is blessed with a really good group of adults/parents that really enjoy each other's company. We don't always agree but usually come to an amicable consensus on issues. I can honestly say I don't think I would partipate with the group described here. If my son wanted to stay with the unit I'd support him but I couldn't see being a volunteer leader in a unit if I was subject to being yelled at. I wouldn't put up with it in my job let alone a volunteer position. Where do these people come from?

 

SA

[anarchist]

scoutmom5,

 

First I do not enter this discussion lightly...a longer post....

 

Using my digets, I count 5 months from June to October 2005...Sorry to say, "turning around" a troop with long standing habits (good or bad) is going to take much longer and much more work...

 

And I would take some of the advice to slow down and be (umm)diplomatic to heart. Remember no matter how well meaning a great Scout Master is he does not run the program (at best he 'offers the BSA program and directs it implementation). The C.O. through the CC and committee run the program. If you continue to make big waves without lots of support the results could be tragic both for your family and the troop.

 

Very few organizations 'like' change. Very few organizations like new ideas...Most of us are very comfortable -stuck in "the way it used to be". When you introduce change and new ideas it is nearly always better to do it slowly and incrementally. It is also a universal truth that if you can convince someone that the "new idea" was theirs to begin with it goes down much easier...(thusly, we nudge and suggest to our scouts not tell...).

 

Regardless of your and your husband's good intentions, it will do little good to tear the troop apart...and with "shouting matches"... thats where you could be heading. I would like to suggest that in all future actions all the "i's and T's" be dotted and crossed and negotiated as if you were walking in a mine field.

 

You note that your Husband (he sounds like our "RGG"-{really good guy}) sat down and planned a calendar and the boys were "thoughtful and thrilled"...it also sounds as if they we at least partly clueless and unprepared (ergo the conflicts). Planning a campout or planning the year...it matters not, there is absolutely no good reason to plan "in the dark".

In our planning sessions we have the troop template, the council, the local district and the multiple school calendars all in front of us to avoid needless conflict...We have our planning meetings starting in July and finishing in August just so we can have everyones schedule...do conflict arise?...of course, sometime it just can't be helped but if you make every effort to avoid such conflicts they "go down" better.

 

Yes, the old guys might be neanderthals and wrong, wrong, wrong...but they can make things much more difficult if they are 'vexed'. It is far better to bring them into the fold gently or at least try not to ruffle their feathers needlessly.

 

IN the example of the "camporall", if I understand the concept, An encampment dedicated to the retention and enlistment of Webelos for Boy Scouting, is important to the entire scouting program...That said, you noted the boys "unanimously" vote to not to participate. Did all the troop or just the PLC vote? Did the PLC take the agenda to their patrols in advance? In other words was it the vote of the troop or sorta "what some of the older boys thought the troop should do?" In this area, there are many questions not the least of which was did they really understand what the event represented?

 

I bring this up because left to the device of the Older scouts (with "them old hands" particularly- they have done it all and "it is no longer fun- more like work")the "troop" would probably always vote to "bail-out on this one", after all who wants to be saddled with little "Kids" for a weekend?!...And maybe they are (even?) right! But as we all know; in polite society there are "obligations"...This kind of event is one! (If it sounds like I have been "there, and done that"...I have , heck, I even bought the "Tee shirt")

In our troop, WE "couch" this kind of obligation in terms such as "Scout Spirit" and service to the troop...and it is still like swallowing bad medicine to many older scouts.

 

"Boy led" (note: not "boy run")does not mean that adults do not "nudge" them in certain directions...many boys would be happy to bring along their video games and vegitate at the campouts...sometimes they need to be "pushed" or "challenged" to hike in the winter...if they freeze, the training and leadership failed not the activity (winter hikes are great...) Many of our boys hate our District Klondike derbies 'cause they are cold and sometimes wet...BUT Many boys love the competition ...and if they don't try different events...none of them learn anything of the event nor of themselves.

 

Short story: I had a pizza recently with one of our recent eagles 18 yrs old(a newly minted troop ASM) in talking about our troop activities I noted that I didn't recall he had ever travelled "down the river" with me on our annual 100+ mile canoe trip...I got a sheepish grin and he said "no one had ever pushed him" to do the trip and "water" was not his favorite place to play...after talking about several of our trips ...he then said he had probably missed something special and wished his folks or the troop leaders had 'pushed' him more to give it a try...

 

Regardless of your methods and intentions keep in mind that in some cases the old guard is (maybe?) right...for reasons they are not even sure of...After all, it is a fifty boy troop-something did or "used to" work -right?!...(50 scouts = not bad for size -in many areas)...it pays to be on reasonable terms with them -as sometimes they can be helpful.

 

WE found that by blending in and slowing filling the ranks with trained adults we made a smooth (mostly) transition but it was not overnight. WE tryed to work "beside" the old guard not "in front of" them. Consultation rather than confrontation... It took three years of constant work and another three years to make the changes somewhat institutional...(heck we are still working hard nine years later). But we avoided blowing the troop up and hurting the boys...in the process.

WE literally took the troop over one patrol at a time.

 

I also note here, that some troop events "may not be or are not" for every boy. Each unit should offer a program with activities that challenge and engage but sometimes- not all boys at all events. There are necessarily events that young boys can not do; or older boys don't want to do...this is where the program must be made to shine to keep the whole troop moving forward not forgetting any of the boys....

 

Your Zen lesson for the day: Bolos or neckerchiefs ...regardless of the topic the good work is worth it or it is not...it is easy to do or it is not...mostly it is up to you....

 

to roll up your sleeves and put you shoulder to the yoke or not.

 

We found it was worth it.

 

anarchist

 

[ScoutingEMT]

I spent some time in a troop like this. My troop loved the idea of a "boy run troop" Until they realized that THEIR boys didn't want to run the troop, and the new SPL did want to run the troop. There was a lot of strife, and my family, and my best friend - the New SPL, and a few other scouts moved on to another troop.

 

Committe Training is needed, as is some beating over the head with hiking staffs. Is it going to kill the troop if THIS YEAR's webelos go somewhere else? Prpbably not, just make sure you've got some den chiefs in place and trained to help get NEXT YEARS webelos.

 

If the scouts don't want to do Camporee, they don't have to. If the scouts want to go winter camping someplace different, or even go to a different summer camp, they should discuss, and have some good reasons, but it should be allowed.

 

Camporees and Klondikes are very good scouting events, and perhaps it should be suggested that your scouts do it at least every other year? And, for any scouts intrested, many places have "youth staff" for the camporees, and that could be a good thing for a couple of scouts that REALLY want to go to the camporee to do.

 

As for the Fall Foliage hike.... I love the idea. While winter camping is an important skill to learn, a backpacking trip is much easier in slightly more mild conditions.

 

Jon