So what happens when

[msnowman]

A Unit folds?

By most figuring our Pack will, unfortunately, not be rechartering this winter. None of the parents of current Cub Scouts are willing to step up and take on leadership roles, including CM. I've already told the parents that I will not be rechartering as CM and without a CM the Pack will fold. I have advised my COR & CC of this same thing. Before you say "The committee..." please understand that we have been working as a committee of 3 for the last year, so right or wrong I am 1/3 of the committee. The CC is also looking to retire from the Pack but is willing to stay another year.

 

I've never seen a Unit folds, so I'm not sure what happens.

 

Michelle

CM - P102 (soon to be former)

[EagleInKY]

I hate to hear about this. I haven't been involved in this, but I understand a few of the basics. The assets (money and gear) of the unit technically belong to the CO. Most COs are unaware of this.

 

If the scouts transfer to other units, most COs approve the transfer of the assets with them. For example, I know of a troop that folded. About 1/3 of the boys went to one troop, and 2/3 went to a different one. They took the assets and split them along that ratio and gave it to the two troops.

 

If the scouts are not going to another unit, I believe one of three things can happen. 1)The CO may hold on to the assets and save them for a future attempt to reinstate scouting. Some like this option because they figure they'll try again in a year or two. 2) The CO can reallocate the funds to other youth programs (Girl Scouts, youth group, etc.). 3) They can give them over to the council to use. I believe the first and third options are most common, but I don't know that for a fact.

[Rooster7]

EagleInKY,

 

Unless other arrangements were made (e.g., someone loaned a personal vehicle or trailer to the unit), the chartering organization owns all of the equipment and property. In short, to my knowledge, the CO is under no obligation to pick among the three options you presented. They are free to do as they please with their own assets. In fact, they do not have to wait for the unit to fold.

 

[packsaddle]

I agree with Rooster7. I've never been involved with a pack that 'liquidated' but a couple of leader generations after I left as cubmaster, those leaders took their boys to another pack (long story). The original pack still existed but it was much thinner in membership as a result. Worse, in addition to taking their boys, those leaders also took the treasury and the gear. Really bad situation.

Quite a while later when I found out about this, I helped some concerned parents intervene. I'm not sure those leaders knew what they were doing...but when they were 'called' on it, things got nasty. The treasury was lost (for lack of available good records) but the equipment was returned.

It's been several years now and they won't look me in the eye to this day.

[CA_Scouter]

Forgive my ignorance, but the CO gets the equipment? Our CO gives us nada... except the use of their facility ( the garage bay ). We pay the chartering fee, we pay for the membership of the CO rep, we hold the fundraisers to buy the equipment, we solicit the equipment donations, etc...

 

It would be a cold day in, uh, Ecuador, before I would give the CO our equipment. I would make sure it would get to another scouting unit!

 

 

[John-in-KC]

CA_Scouter,

 

Go and read your charter. The chartering agency is the licensee of the Scouting program. You and all other leaders are an extension of that agency.

 

Call your SE or DE. They'll tell you, in no uncertain terms, that when you fold, the property and the Treasury belong to the chartered partner.

 

That said, last spring, a Troop in my area decided to close up shop. The Committee asked permission of its chartered partner to take its equipment and Treasury to the troop they were joining en masse. (I was the chairman at the time, and insisted the old committe do this). The old chartering partner was gracious, and allowed the property and funds to come across.

 

The Committee dividing the property and the money amongst the members when a unit folds, if not approved by the chartered partner, can be construed as theft or embezzlement. Be careful here.

 

Due notice: I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV.

[Eamonn]

Hi Michelle,

I can't help but think that you might be jumping the gun a little.

If you no longer wish to be Cubmaster, that is up to you.

You are of course free to walk away and do as you like. But what happens after you leave is none of your business. That is up to the CO. I would hope that the people who serve at the District level are aware of the leadership problems that Pack 102 is facing and that they will work with the CO to see what can be done.

If the unit does fold what happens is up to the CO and the Council.

I have seen District Membership Committees work miracles, so please hold off saying that the unit is dead until the CO throws in the towel!!

At one time it seemed that the pack OJ was in was going to close, no one was coming forward to take on leadership positions. However once it became clear that the CM was going and things looked really bad, someone who had been hiding in the shadows did come forward. Within three years the Pack had over 60 Cub Scouts and a working committee.

I know as I was the one hiding in the shadows.

Eamonn.

[Cubmaster Jerry]

Good points Eamonn. I will echo the others concerns that hopefully your unit will continue on after your service. Hopefully there are others lurking in the shadows.

 

However, if I remember, you have a VERY small unit and a VERY small pool of youth, don't you. Sounds like a tough battle for your CO. I commend you and your committee on keeping such a small unit in a small community going. Has the idea of folding been presented to the parents who will remain? What say they?

 

And one note on the fact that the CO owns everything. I have heard (not seen in practice) where leaders purchase everything themselves then "loan" it to the unit. But as EagleInKY states, most COs don't have a clue that they own the assets.

[Eamonn]

A little while back in these forums so wise and clever person;sadly I can't remember who? Brought up the idea that we are only Stewards and we need to look at the role we play as Stewardship.

We don't own the unit or the program, we are entrusted with the careful and responsible management of both.

BP is quoted as saying:

"Try and leave this world a little better than you found it .."

We at times get so busy and wrapped up doing things with the youth that are in the unit that at times we forget that most of these youth are just passing through, they will move on. The group we have today are not going to be there in a few years and we are not going to be there forever. The time will come for us to move on.

If we have done our best to ensure that the unit will carry on, long after we have gone and that the unit is a little better than when we joined and will live after we have gone we will have done a good job.

Eamonn.

[msnowman]

CMJerry, yes, we do have a very small pack (down to 2 Wolves, 1 Bear and 3 Tigers) from a very small school (Under 170 for grades K-8). Our CO is a local Methodist church with a very...aging population, they don't even have a Sunday School because they have no youth. The CO ignores us unless we want to use the Parish Hall at the same time as one of the Church groups. Our COR is aware of the situation (he's also the DC) and agrees that it is time for the other parents to step up. He will be at our Pack meeting next week to give it a shot.

 

The whole of Pack leadership/committee is myself (CM & W/B DL), CC, and the TL . Of those, only 1 is the parent of a scout. Zero of the other parents, even when asked directly, have been willing to step up. The two parents who had filled out adult apps have backed out. The MC we chartered last year have left the Pack as their boys have left the pack (one graduated out and the other dropped this fall to go out for drama). The ACM dropped out because of personal issues and the former WDL is now working 3 jobs and all of his Webs dropped out (family issues for one, and drama for the other two).

 

Eamonn - I would like nothing more than to see the Pack continue. I am even willing to stay as ACM to help the new CM get their feet under them. I didn't mean it to sound like I'm jumping the gun, its the compulsive planner in me. We have til 12/31/05 to complete our rechartering and I am keeping my fingers crossed that somebody will step up, so I hope we have an Eamonn lurker in our Pack family so that the Pack will continue, after all, I have a den that I am making activity plans for, as well as a Den Chief who is dying to get his Den Chief award (minor thing to an adult perhaps, but a big goal for him).

 

The parents have gotten the speech about the need for a CM...well, they have heard it, but I don't know if the reality of it has sunk in yet. They were told, in so many words, that I will not be rechartering as the CM and without a CM the Pack will not exist. I am hoping our COR will be able to get some of the reluctants to step up.

 

Thanks all for letting me ask seemingly foolish questions here.

 

Michelle

CM - P102

[eagle90]

I think Common Sense must apply! How many CO's would actually WANT equipment? I guarantee our Parent Teachers Organization couldn't care less about camping gear for 50 people. And like CA Scouter, we get nothing from them except a meeting place. In fact we give THEM a donation every year. Before they would get any excess money from our demise, we would have one heck of a party for the remaining few!

[FScouter]

"The parents have gotten the speech about the need for a CM ..."

 

Which of those parents do you think have the qualities needed to be a good Cubmaster? Rather than sitting back and hoping he will volunteer, hows about being pro-active and recruiting him? Take 2 adults, knock on his door, invite yourselves in and make your pitch. Tell him he would make a perfect adult leader and that he is the one that the unit feels would be best to lead their boys. You have to sell the position.

[msnowman]

FScouter - I have approached every single adult, individually, with positions that would suit their strengths. We have 3 who would be great in the CM position, its just that they aren't interested. I'm hoping the COR will have better luck.

 

Michelle

[packsaddle]

I would also like to thank Eamonn for his good advice. I also remember the stewardship idea. It seems like that came from Bob White, am I wrong?

 

Eagle90, I don't know how many COs are like the one for this unit but this CO has another youth program that has similar outings but is co-ed. We sometimes share the resources and I assure you that if the troop folded, the CO would keep everything.

 

Msnowman, the 'lurking' model is how I got started as an adult leader as well. Almost exactly the way Eamonn described. In my case I took over with about 10 boys left. When I moved up to boy scouts, we had over 30 cubs and the pinewood derby was becoming an all-day event. Don't give up yet.

[EagleInKY]

Rooster - I stand corrected. Let me try again. You are correct, the CO can do whatever they want. However, most don't understand the whole ownership/licensing relationship. So, usually the district or council will give them some options. According to the DEs I've talked to about this topic, they try to get them to either (1) hold it for restarting the unit in the future or (2) giving it to other units. They usually don't offer up the "keep it and do with it what you wish" option, unless it comes up. Why would they do that? To keep the assets in scouting, of course.

 

I'm sure there are some examples of COs taking the equipment for themselves, but I would think they would be few and far between. Think of the headline "Local Church Disbands Boy Scout Troop, Seizes All Assets and Auctions $10,000 in Equipment for Building Fund". I just don't think they would like that kind of publicity.