"an alternative to the BSA for those who choose "

[Eamonn]

I have to admit to being a little puzzled.

Kudu posted:

Hopefully we will soon have an alternative to the BSA for those who choose to operate today's troop on Baden-Powell's traditional Scouting practices.

What I don't understand is why the wait?

Hey, if you don't like what the BSA is doing what is preventing you from starting your own youth group?

Eamonn.

[Kudu]

What I don't understand is why the wait?

 

Well, golly gee Eamonn, how long does it usually take you to organize something like that?

 

My primary interest is in looking at Scouting from a wider viewpoint. Baden-Powell's model of how to do Scouting provides a different perspective because there is no record of that ever having been done in the United States.

 

Of course I would also love to see someone organize a Traditional form of Scouting based on William Hillcourt's pre-1972 methods :-) Traditional Scouting is usually defined as being true to Scouting as it was practiced in the early 1960's making changes in the program only for reasons of 1) Health & Safety, 2) Environmental Concerns ("Leave No Trace"), 3) Advances in Light-Weight Equipment.

 

So, Eamonn why didn't you answer my question? Has every WOSM organization discarded Baden-Powell's Patrol System?

 

It seems simple enough to answer: a) No, Kudu, we don't use Baden-Powell's Patrol System in the UK either. Or, b) Yes, Scoutmasters still appoint the Troop Leader (SPL), and that is why we lost the British Empire :-/

 

Kudu

 

 

[Eamonn]

Well, golly gee Eamonn, how long does it usually take you to organize something like that?

I have never given it a lot of thought, I'm happy to deliver and support the programs of the BSA.

However if I was unhappy with the uniforms and the programs of the BSA, I suppose I could set myself up as some sort of Scouting Guru, write a new set of rules and regulations and hang out my shingle. Of course I would have to tell each and every youth and parent that this program was not a BSA program, that we would not be using BSA material,not using any of the BSA resources and we would not have any of the insurances offered by the BSA. Without the insurances I think I would have a hard time finding an organization that would be willing to charter or sponsor this new unit.

Still there are other "Scout Organizations" out there that are happy to have people both youth and adult sign on and do nothing but complain about how big and bad the BSA is. If that was all I wanted to do? All I would need to do is set up a web site.

 

Has every WOSM organization discarded Baden-Powell's Patrol System?

I have no idea.

I am a member of the BSA and follow the programs of the BSA.

 

It seems simple enough to answer: a) No, Kudu, we don't use Baden-Powell's Patrol System in the UK either. Or, b) Yes, Scoutmasters still appoint the Troop Leader (SPL), and that is why we lost the British Empire.

As I have stated I am a member of the BSA and really don't care what is happening in the UK.

I did notice that they no longer list Patrols as a method and I do know that they no longer use Patrols on the UK Wood Badge course.

As for the Empire? I think we ran out of cricket bats and the tea outside of England left a lot to be desired.

Eamonn.

(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[Kudu]

However if I was unhappy with the uniforms and the programs of the BSA, I suppose I could set myself up as some sort of Scouting Guru, write a new set of rules and regulations and hang out my shingle.

 

Be sure to add "Produces Scouters who make personal attacks" to the list of "What's Wrong with the BSA." :-)

 

The "Traditional Scouting Movement" dates back to the 1960s when Scouting membership went into decline. All around the world, marketing gurus in WOSM Scouting associations began to dramatically rewrite the program as it had been set up by its inventor Baden-Powell (or William Hillcourt in the USA) in an effort to popularize Scouting with "today's new generation of youth."

 

In the UK (where big government does not limit its citizens to only one brand-name of Scouting), Scouters picked up the discarded program and called it "Baden-Powell Scouting." So, by definition, Traditional Scouting is not a "new set of rules and regulations," written by "some sort of Scouting Guru," but rather a return to the rules and regulations as written by Baden-Powell.

 

Of course I would have to tell each and every youth and parent that this program was not a BSA program,

 

The BSA sued the Girl Scouts and Winchester Arms over the use of the word "scout" in 1924 with similar claims. They assembled an amusing collection of affidavits claiming that the use of the name "Girl Scouts" inflicted psychological damage on the boys, and that the name should be "Girl Guides."

 

that we would not be using BSA material, not using any of the BSA resources

 

I favor large posters rather than books for helping learn basic Tenderfoot through First Class Scouting skills. For Proficiency Badges, how many people these days rely on BSA Merit Badge books anyway? In the BSA, there are Troops that favor do-it-yourself camping over BSA summer camps, and Traditional Scouting will appeal to a similar small minority of like-minded Scouters, see:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop

 

and we would not have any of the insurances offered by the BSA.

 

The BSA is not the only youth organization to discover the virtues of insurance.

 

people both youth and adult sign on and do nothing but complain about how big and bad the BSA is.

 

Like everything else in life, the BSA has its advantages and disadvantages. My point is simply that in the larger world of Scouting, there is nothing inherently wrong with a Scoutmaster appointing the SPL. The BSA is just one brand of Scouting in the same way that McDonald's is just one brand of burger making.

 

I am a member of the BSA and really don't care what is happening in the UK.

 

OK, my bad. Whenever a question about UK Scouting comes up in the Scouter.Com discussion forums, someone always says, "Oh, ask Eamonn!"

 

Kudu

 

 

[Eamonn]

Kudu,

Once again I'm puzzled !!

I hope that your comment "Be sure to add "Produces Scouters who make personal attacks" to the list of "What's Wrong with the BSA" is not directed at me?

However if you feel that I have made personal attacks on you please accept my apology.

I may not and in fact do not like where you stand on certain things that have to do with Scouting and the BSA. But I don't know you well enough to make comments about you as a person.

I also disagree with my brother about British politics. I know him really well and know his good and bad points, still we can spend hours telling each other that he is wrong.

I do not have a problem with anyone who wants to go out and serve or start a youth organization. In fact if they are really unhappy with the BSA and the way it does things, they should leave.

You are right when you say that: " McDonald's is just one brand of burger making."

Still if I go and ask for a Baked Potato, which as far as I know McDonald's don't serve, they will not be able to help me. Then the choice is mine. Do I take the fries? Go to the other Fast Food restaurant that does serve Baked Potatoes? Or decide that I can live without the extra calories. One thing that I know isn't going to happen is that McDonald's isn't going to serve me a Baked potato. Maybe if enough people write to the head office or enough people complain McDonald's might think about adding Baked Potatoes to their menu. This might take some time. They might need to find suppliers who can supply the right type and size of Potatoes, they might need to find the right sort of equipment to bake the potatoes. Then they would need to train their staff how to cook and serve the potato.By which time some Health Organization will say that Baked Potatoes cause warts and everyone in the world will stop eating Baked Potatoes (Apart from me, as I happen to like them.)

As for my relationship with UK Scouting.

Please allow me to share to little story with you.

Back in 1977, I landed myself in a lot of hot water.

I had visited the USA for the first time and had come over to work as an International Camp Counselor. I spent ten weeks working at a summer camp.

At that time International Camp Counselors didn't get paid. But the BSA laid on a bus tour of the Eastern states. When we got to Philadelphia someone from the press asked me what I thought about American Scouts.

Of course at that time I had never been exposed to the "American Summer Camp". I was used to summer camp being the Troop Camp of the year. The idea that kids arrived to tents that were already up and ate meals in a dining room, where the meals were cooked for them was totally and completely foreign to me. So in answer to the question, I said that I thought that the Boy Scouts in America were a bunch of softies!!

This hit the news wire and when I got home letters from some very upset BSA Scouter's started to arrive. The International Department at Baden Powell House were not very happy.

Looking back I now see that I was wrong.

No. I still don't like Summer Camps, but I can now accept that this is the way things are done over here.

I have other things that I may see as not being as good as they were in the UK, but I'm not there and I now see it is a case of "When in Rome.."

There have been a lot of changes in the way that the Scout Association is doing things. I was only a little Lad when the Advanced Party Report came out in 1969. Sure I know of adults who seen the changes and said that they just couldn't accept them and quit.

I served on the Service Team at Walton Firs National Camp Site, with some people who before the changes were in Rover Scouts, these guys were good they had mastered outdoor skills and had a great love of Rovering.But there wasn't a Rover Scout Program any more. At least not at a Scout Association National Camp Site. Sure these guys could go and meet with the Rovers that were meeting on the Lower Richmond Road and yes the land lord of the Kings Arms was happy to see them when they came in wearing the outdated Rover Scout uniform. There was even a picture frame with Rover Scout badges and stuff hanging on the wall. Of course these guys are now old. Few people in the UK remember Rover Scouts and the Scouts in the program today don't care. They are in Scouting for fun and adventure.

The last time I was in the Kings Arms on the Lower Richmond Road, the picture frame was gone, there was a band playing grunge music and the young crowd were drinking bottles of Rolling Rock beer, which they thought was really cool. It's brewed just down the road from me and when I owned a couple of bars the young people thought that drinking Bass Ale was really cool.

Eamonn.

 

[Kudu]

Well, statements like "I suppose I could set myself up as some sort of Scouting Guru, write a new set of rules and regulations and hang out my shingle," speculate on personality, rather directly addressing the merits of Baden-Powell's Scouting methods.

 

Still if I go and ask for a Baked Potato, which as far as I know McDonald's don't serve, they will not be able to help me.

 

I don't like fried burgers, but McDonald's really does make the best fries. If Congress granted them a monopoly on the term "Baked Potato," then all baked potatoes would be fried :-/

 

The idea that kids arrived to tents that were already up and ate meals in a dining room, where the meals were cooked for them was totally and completely foreign to me. So in answer to the question, I said that I thought that the Boy Scouts in America were a bunch of softies!!

 

I think that your initial reaction was correct. Not that BSA Scouts are softies, but that most summer camps only pay lip service to the Patrol Method, sacrificing it to being efficient Merit Badge factories. My Scouts' favorite summer camp is one that includes both Patrol cooking and five Merit Badge classes per day, so it is possible to do both within the BSA program.

 

But there wasn't a Rover Scout Program any more.

 

The Rover program is returning. Some BSA people run it as a Venturing speciality.

 

Kudu