Troop Committee - ASM conflict

[Juggler]

I am scoutmaster, and several members of my TC have had a long-standing feud ongoing with one of my ASMs. This ASM has a bit of an abrasive personality, but if when you look at the whole package, the positives far outweigh the negatives.

 

The TC has been sending me strong signals that they want me to fire this ASM. And now the chartered org. rep has also joined the discussion on the side of the TC. They (the TC) claim there have been numerous complaints about this ASM, but they won't give me names, and no one has comlained directly to me.

 

Should I give more credence to the TC than I have been? (Not to be sexist, but all of the feuding parties are women.)

 

Also, does the TC have the authority to tell the SM who should and shouldn't be the ASMs?

 

 

 

 

[FScouter]

Sounds like the complaints have been only between committee members.

 

The function of an assistant SM is to assist the SM in working with the boys. How does he function in that regard? Is he abrasive to boys, or only to committee members?

[Juggler]

She's very demanding with the boys, and asks a lot of them (she deals mainly with Star and Life scouts). However, if she receives an honest effort (even though it may fall short of what she asked) then she is effusive in her praise of them. And scouts that have been under her tutelage all have strong scout skills (knots, first aid, canoeing, etc.) and many of them have developed good leadership and people skills.

 

She has had an issue with one scout in particular, but she's not the only ASM in the troop that has trouble getting this one scout to perform.

 

Before I became Scoutmaster, I was told (by the TC chair) that she said of my oldest son that he would never become an Eagle if she had anything to say about it (he was going through a "loner" phase at the time). Well he later did attain Eagle rank, and credits much of his growth within the troop to her advocacy.

 

Kind of a long-winded reply to your question. The shorter version is this - she works well with the boys, but it takes them a while to get used to her. And she's much better on outings than she is in our weekly meetings, and that's when the TC members are more likely to see her.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

So Juggler, you would say you like her and consider her an asset to the Troop and the other ASMs work with her and respect her?

[Juggler]

Yes, I do like her, although it took me a while to figure that out. Of the other three ASMs in the troop, one likes her, one doesn't, and the other is ambivalent. But all the ASMs agree that overall she's an asset for the troop.

 

But as I said in my original post, the TC really wants me to get rid of her. And I don't really know who has the authority here.(This message has been edited by Juggler)

[Venividi]

Juggler,

 

Are folks comfortable with her having high expectations for the scouts?

 

Have you talked with a few key scouts to see what they think of her - not just looking for someone easy, but a view tht she is tough but fair? I can think back to when I was in school, and from the perspective of time, it is the tough teachers that I had which I now value.

[OldGreyEagle]

Heck, its a Boy Scout troop, not a Fortune 500 Conglomerate. The Troop COmmittee is not the Board of Directors, the Unit Chair is not the Supreme High Commander. If you let this ASM get "fired", if you let the Chair run off what appears is an asset to the Troop, what's next? Somebody who has a car in a color the Chair doesnt like? She may be abrasive, but one of the Boy Scout methods is adult association and that doesnt always mean the adults line the path with rose petals. If she is doing her job, being consistent and fair, I would quit as Scoutmaster if they run her off.

 

Funny, I started off saying running a troop isnt supposed to be about egos, at least adult egos, then I end saying you should quit if she is run off. Well, I never said I was consistent.

[Bob White]

The responsibility to select and approve any leader is in the hands of the CR and CC. While I would hope that they would give the scoutmaster's opinion of an ASM due consideration, it is not the scoutmaster's role to determine who if anyone should be a leader. Give them your complete and honest appraisal but then let the CC and CR do their job.

 

 

[Kahuna]

I agree with OGE. The committee has to approve all adult leaders, but unless they can show some significant violation of actual policy, the SM should be able to call the shots on ASM's. I would walk out on them if they didn't back off.

 

Sounds like somebodys son got po'd at the ASM in question and has the TC stirred up.

[FScouter]

Well, the troop committee is kinda like a corporate board of directors. But how many corporate boards go down to the shop floor and tell the plant manager to fire one of his key people?

 

Actually, one of the most important jobs of the committee is to select and recruit the best leaders. And they are also responsible to remove ineffective or destructive leaders. Maybe this assistant hit a raw nerve with CC. But before the committee acts to satisfy an ego, it would behoove them to consider might follow.

 

I'd suggest the SM express to the committee his satisfaction with the assistant. Then insist that if they want to remove her, they first select a qualified replacement.

 

It is not the SM responsibility to "fire" other adult leaders.

[madkins007]

I got concerned when you said the COR was on the TC's side- the COR and the CC can install and remove pretty much without anyone else's OK according to the way things are supposed to work.

 

Of course, a SMART CC and COR will consider input carefully before acting.

 

I've worked with people like you described. One woman especially is an incredible resource for Scouting skills, but a lot of people really can't stand her. I stopped asking her to help with Cub Leader training because of input from trainees about her style.

 

But... her success rate was phenomenal as well, and the Scouts in her unit love her. To me, this is the real bottom line.

 

I think I'd sit down with the CC and COR in a small, informal meeting (I'd do it over supper out somewhere) and present your side, and listen to their concerns.

 

If the CC is being beseiged by comments like 'I'll quit if I have to deal with her again', the CC grows quite upset. In our situation, the CC was getting exactly those kinds of statements from other adults who found our 'thorn' abrasive and legalistic.

 

Does the CC understand how the boys feel? Does the CC see all she contributes behind the scenes, etc.? Is the 'thorn' too visible (attends every meeting, etc.- ours did!)? Are the conflicts happening in specific situations (ours were mostly curing TC meetings).

 

Get some info and share some info. Look for common ground and special areas of concern.

 

It might be that you (or someone how can speak to her well) can go to the 'thorn' and talk with her. Share the basic concerns, suggest she avoid committee meetings (especially if the committee does not generally include ASMs, etc.) or other potential situations.

 

FYI- Our thorn was incredibly affronted by the suggestions that some people found her awkward to work with. She threatened to quit, was furious that SHE was being talked to instead of the 'newcomer upstarts' on the TC, etc., etc., etc. She FINALLY agreed that it would be best for the entire unit and for her if she let other people step up to run the troop and let her focus on working weith advancement and Scout skill training.

 

She shifted her focus more and more to the district and council levels, which made a lot of the TC happy... but I kinda missed her!

[Eamonn]

Much as I hate to disagree with OGE. (I don't as a rule) And much as it may seem unfair. The SM is not the person who selects the Troop Leadership. If the CC and the COR no longer want this ASM working with the youth in the Troop, they represent the CO and that is the final word. He or She has to go.

Of course the SM can do what he can to put in a good word and paint as good as picture as possible. But they have all the aces. Heck it's their deck.

Eamonn.

[Jim_C]

BSA policy is pretty clear on who can hire and fire unit leadership. It is the unit committee chair's job. Period.

 

But, that said, it's not the answer to interpersonal relationships. If the conflict is unresolved within the unit (the best solution), you can rely on your Commissioner to advise on the situation. Normally, the Commissioner is on the outside of the "forest" and can usually see from a fair distance as to what is really happening. Why not ask his/her advice in this case.

 

Yours in Scouting, Jim Costello, Unit Commissioner, Great Sauk Trail Council, Ann Arbor, Mich.

[OldGreyEagle]

Ah Eamonn, there goes that nonagression compact huh?

Actually I agree that its not the scoutmaster's job to select troop leadership. My advice to Juggler was based on his assesment the ASM in question is an asset to the troop and that the "problem" is more perceived than real. I see the chair as being on a power trip and in need of a reality check.

 

Jim, you are going to have to give me chapter and verse on the BSA policy that says leadership selection is the Chairs job. I think the COR is involved there somehow, aint it?

[anarchist]

 

organizational clap trap! don't cha love it?

 

there is probably on easy way out, here.

 

1. "hire-fire" is not the SM job- your job is to lead, motivate and teach the BSA program to Scouts. If they are going to "fire" the ASM it is their job.

2. COR and CC hold the high cards here.

3. You can either choose to either stay or go and that's the rub...

 

Your ASM is valuable to the program...so says you...

Are you willing to walk away... if she is asked to leave?

Is the ASM's work strong or important enough(program-wise)to "choose" this fight?

Then there is the ego and/or honor "card" that has to be looked at...

 

I tend to come down on OGE's side of the calculation here...but unlike OGE, I tend to be one of those abraisive folks myself. If she is important to the program you are working within, you have to decide how important she is to the troop...will it be worth taking a stand...walking away from your program to "defend" the ASM? Is the fight worth the damage to the troop of losing an SM (also)?...a very tough call.

 

but in the end if I felt that her work was good for the boys and that the committee was being ...ahh,... stupid...I would have to tell the COR and CC that I could no longer work for them and that I was returning to "just be a scout parent" again ( and then of course assess the pros and cons of finding a new troop for my sons....)