"Paper" Eagles - failures or not?

[CNYScouter]

Ive seen the term Paper Eagle here on the forums.

 

So, what is everyones option on a kid who Eagless Out at 15 and is never seen again even if the kid has a good reason not to be involved with scouting (Sport scholarship to a large University)

 

How many of you Paper Eagles as a failure of the troops program or not?

 

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

I would imagine that there are some number of Eagles out there who had as their goal simply something to put on their college admission forms; I suspect that these kids were probably pushed by their parents (I don't know that a teenager is able to think that far ahead ) In those cases, they are probably "gaming the system" to their own end, but I don't think you can blame the system for that.

 

So, IMO, most Eagles, even those who Eagle out early, are well-intentioned and really do want to help their Troops going forward. But, as with all things, priorities change. I don't see that as a failure of the program.

[Trevorum]

How do you define the term "Paper Eagle"?

[scoutingagain]

If there is a "failure" with Paper Eagles, it is with the adults that enable such a program and not the scouts.

 

Also, just my thought, there is no specific time or set of circumstances that I expect an Eagle to contribute back to scouting. Many have important priorities just after High School or during their junior or senior year of High School that limit thier ability contribute at that point in their lives.

 

However, at somepoint in their lives, they will likely come upon a set of circumstances where their particular set of leadership skills and qualities are needed to support the community. For some this may come in High School, others College or the military, for most it may not come until they reach adulthood and have families of their own. It may be a charity event, an community organization or scouts. It may be the local pack or troop needs new adult leadership, or it maybe the local youth sprots team needs a new coach. When the time comes, I would hope the Eagle stands up and says, "I'll do it."

 

SA

 

 

[Eagle447]

We have a core group of Life Scouts who will be entering their junior year in high school..... they are all very close to being 16..... These kids are dedicated and have worked hard.......Eagles probably by the end of the year........they have committed themselves to scouting and yes with the 3W's coming....... Wheels,Women,Work.....I feel they will become JASM's and continue to grow in the program

[SemperParatus]

I do not think there is any such thing as a 'paper eagle' (boy, do I detest that term), other than in the imaginations of adults that choose to look for a way to belittle a boy's accomplishment. A system is in place (and has been for nearly a century) to ensure that the scout's troop, district, council and national have determined that the Eagle rank requirements have been satisfied. If there is a system failure than that is a failure of the adults, and to pin a kid with a label of 'paper eagle' is a disservice to that boy's work and commitment. Some boys will certainly choose different routes (project difficulty, merit badge numbers and methods, POR levels) to Eagle, but as long as the technical requirements are satisfied, all routes are valid. There is no requirement of troop service after earning the rank. A boy is free to stop scouting anytime they want for any reason.

[CNYScouter]

Paper Eagle- one where an adult arranges all the MB to take during troop meetings, because he is so busy with sports does not do a good job with POR's and is not very active with the troop most of the time.

He "technically" did do the requirements just did not learn alot of Scoutings values on the way.

 

I am not looking for a way to belittle a boy's accomplishment or saying the BSA program is a failure, but asking when a Troop's program promotes this and when scouts make eagle early (young) and leave the program, do you consider this type of program a failure as a Scoutng Program?

[isvirtual]

"when a Troop's program promotes this and when scouts make eagle early (young) and leave the program, do you consider this type of program a failure as a Scoutng Program? "

 

We have to look at the trends. If there is a single incident where the youth finished his requirements and didn't return, then we must hope he remembers his journey and contributes later as an adult. If there is a long list of youth who earn their Eagle rank then disappear, the troop leadership needs to be investigated. It is not the boy's responsibility to keep the program interesting and rewarding.

 

Either way, the boy has done the work to the satisfaction of the counselors, the scoutmaster, and the board of review members. Apparently, all of these adults didn't consider him a failure when they approved his paperwork.

 

I agree with some of the prior posters, the term "paper eagle" is derogatory and unfair to the scouts. Perhaps we should call the real problem "paper leaders".

[OldGreyEagle]

I think the BSA program is pretty well thought out, if there are "paper Eagles" its not the program, its the adults who administer it.

[Eagle447]

I agree with the previous posters who challenge the words...Paper Eagle.......As it has been noted before our duty is promote the success of our scouts and hand in hand a retention of those at a higher rank to help the newbies.I also agree that Jrs and Srs in high school are very busy......if the program is working well according to the directives established by the Boy Scouts of America you will see the higher ranks looked up to by the younger ones. It is this sense of accomplishment that will help the older scouts stay on.

[Hunt]

I think it would be obvious to anyone that there will be a range of how "strong" Eagle candidates are. Some will be more impressive and more committed than others. The question, I think, is whether the system is so weak that some really undeserving candidates receive their Eagles--and whether it happens often enough to tighten the system, which could cut out some deserving candidates. From what I've observed, I think that the requirements are extensive enough that virtually all candidates will have really accomplished the bulk of them.

[SemperParatus]

"He technically did do the requirements just did not learn alot of Scoutings values on the way."

 

Which values?

All values or just some?

What is alot?

What is enough?

Were such values even taught/modeled?

Does learning entail practice?

How much practice?

In whose opinion?

What is the basis for the opinion?

 

 

[CNYScouter]

Since you do not like the term Paper Eagle what do you call a Scout that came through a program that did everything for him and was not really required to show responsibility or put any extra-effort into earning his Eagle award?

 

Examples:

1)All MBs were earned at Summer Camp or arranged for him by an adult to do at Troop meetings.

2)All camping trips were planned and run by adults

3)Majority of troop meetings are spent playing football or Frisbee.

4)Because he was so busy with outside activities he barely performed his PORs.

 

Yes, he did fulfill the requirements for Eagle but what values was he taught?

 

A system is in place (and has been for nearly a century) to ensure that the scout's troop, district, council and national have determined that the Eagle rank requirements have been satisfied

 

The system relies mostly in the hands of the Troop. District, council and national are relying on a Scouts Troop and the Scout to supply whether he has fulfilled the requirements or not. So if a troop is letting requirements slide how is the District, council or national going to know

 

If a Scout is pushed though and everything handed to him, how is he taught values?

 

One of the values that was focused on when I made Eagle was giving back to the unit. Although I made Eagle at 14 I did stay and help with the troop until I was 16, as did all of the other Scouts who made Eagle in the troop.

In fact, the only Scout I remember not staying in well after making Eagle was the one whos parents pushed him through his ranks. They wanted him to be the youngest Scout to ever make Eagle. The Eagle BOR did not think he was mature enough and denied him his Eagle. They required him to come back in 6 months, in which they did pass him and we never saw him again.

 

Im in a Troop that has most scouts leave the program when they make Eagle.

We only have one Eagle that has stayed, but he is only interested in earning more MBs and is close to his 5th palm.

 

This question is not a slight against a Scout or to put down a Scouts achievement but a question about the way a troop is running its Scouting program.

 

 

[SemperParatus]

CNYS,

 

Any scout that meets the requirements for the eagle rank is an Eagle Scout. I would make no qualification due to troop deficiencies in providing a quality scouting program. It is not the boys fault that his troop is suffering from poor adult leadership. The 'values' you seem to be searching for are 'responsibility', 'extra-effort', and 'giving back to the unit", none of which are included in the Scout Law. Granted, we would all like our young men to grow with a tremendous sense of personal responsibility and to do more than is expected, but when neither is part of the Scout Law or an explicit requirement for Eagle, then you are asking for more than the BSA requires.

 

Your issues are with your troop's function and the management of the troop by the adult leaders. Why use a boy's rank achievement, within the parameters set out by the BSA and your troop, as a means to attack those problems. To me, its working backwards. You know what the problems are...so fix them; rather than using those problems to question the propriety of a boy's rank. As you know, there is a lot more at stake here than advancement.

 

Fix your troop, so that the young men take away more from their scouting experience. Deriding the Eagle scouts your troop produces under its current operations is not going to fix the problems. Its only bad mouthing the boys' accomplishments.

 

 

 

[acco40]

Did his Eagle service project demonstrate leadership?

 

Did his position of responsibilities for Star, Life and Eagle demonstrate leadership?

 

Did his participation level meet the requirement?

 

Did he show Scout spirit?

 

If none of the above were met, he should not have attained Eagle. The above are requirements.