should you fire an SPL

[red feather]

Ditto OGE

 

yis

[KoreaScouter]

I think we're mixing apples and oranges here, to an extent.

 

What the lad did at Jambo is a Scout Law issue rather than an SPL performance issue; I'd deal with it in that context.

 

A troop committee does not determine if an SPL is doing his job properly; that's the SM's call. An SPL can of course be "fired" if he's not performing. In this case, if the SPL's ability to lead his Troop is irreparably damaged by this incident, a new Troop election may be called for, but you won't know that until after he's home and back in the mix.

 

Kahuna and others are spot-on; acknowledge the mistake, draw a roadmap for the way ahead, and watch to make sure it was an isolated incident rather than a pattern. The boy can't prove himself if he doesn't have opportunities to do so.

 

KS

 

 

 

 

[Rooster7]

I agree with OGE, KoreaScouter, emori, Kahuna, and others.

 

There seems to be a strong consensus across the board. Have a meeting. Discuss future possible consequences. Above all, try to show this kid the error of his ways but don't embarrass him further.

 

Also I would try to find a gentle way of showing the committee their place. They are over stepping their bounds.

 

 

 

[EagleInKY]

Ditto, I agree with these great minds. Use this as a development opportunity. If it happens again, then you deal with it.

 

As for the comment about atheism, I do not believe most troops immediately expel a scout if he claims to be an atheist. They use it as a development challenge for the young man.

[khouseal_1]

As another leader of this wayward Scout's home troop, there are a lot of parents that are exerting pressure on the Scoutmaster to "demote" or expel this SPL. This Scout has been reviewed by the previous Scoutmaster to remove him from the troop due to un-Scoutlike manner but was given another chance. The current Scoutmaster also ran the Scout through the process to remove him from the troop for un-Scoutlike manner and he likewise gave this Scout another chance. This Scout's Cub leader indicates a lengthy history of leading Scouts to the "Dark Side". Now this Scout has stolen patches using theft by deception. This incident involved five other Scouts, even a recent Eagle Scout. This Scout exhibits exceptional leadership ability albeit often on the "Dark Side". Just how far do you let his rope run before he hangs himself? My suggestion is for him to sit with our Scoutmaster and see what his opinion is as to what he would do if he was the Scoutmaster. Expulsion is only going to send this talented leadership good or bad to another troop. If he can be directed to run this troop in a positive direction that would be wonderful but there is an overwhelming movement to at least demote him, not as punishment, he has already been punished by the Jamboree troop (lightly in many person's opinion). This is a request to prevent him from influencing the Scouts in his charge. I think he should make a contract as indicated by previous posts and follow through with his promises, punishment would need to be severe. Hopefully the upstanding families of Scouts that want him out of the troop will be patient and wait to see the outcome of this path of resolution. Unfortunately they have dealt with his un-Scoutlike manner for far too long. Your opinions are requested and respected, Thank you.

 

khouseal, very concerned adult leader

[evmori]

If this behavior has been going on for a long time then there is a bigger problem than initially posted. I don't know if I am from removal from Scouts but I do feel removal from his POR is warranted.

 

How much rope do we give them? Good question. I think this Scout's rope has come to an end.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

I am a bit surprised at the reaction to this situation. In my mind, what this boy did isn't a "mistake," it's a crime--it might even be a felony, depending on the value of the patches. He could go to jail for what he did. When I compare this to the other thread about a boy who dranks some beers, I'm pretty perplexed. In my opinion, if he's really remorseful, the first thing he should do is resign his position as SPL. If the boys want to reelect him even with relevant new information (i.e., that he's a thief), I suppose I wouldn't object. I wouldn't chuck him out of the troop or out of Scouting, but I would consider this are big deal.

 

The other thing this makes me think is that patch "trading" has gotten way, way out of hand. There was an article in the Washington Post about trading at Jamboree that, in my opinion, put scouts in a very bad light.

[Lynda J]

I agree with OGE. He had been punished. Plus it his troop members who elected him SPL. It is not up to the committee to remove him. Kids will make bad choices, but in this case I don't think he should be punished again. Let him learn from it.

I would agree that signing a behavior contract is a good idea. I would also talk to him possibly about putting him on a probation period. Let him be part of that decission.

I know to many kids that have made mistakes when they are younger and turn into really great adults.

But most were lucky enough to have an adult that was willing to work through the situtation with them

[Lynda J]

Hunt. Even the court systems give kids a second chance. Kevin, my foster son's, half sister got in trouble at 16 for stealing. She had never been in trouble before. The judge gave her 200 hours of community service and told her that he would clear her record if she didn't get in trouble again until her 18th birthday. She didn't. She is now 22, married with two great kids. She also has a job that she could not have gotten with a criminal record.

I don't think we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Each and everyone of us deserves a second chance at some point in our lives. I will almost bet that each and everyone of us had been given a second chance at some time in our lives. Because a boy does one bad thing does not make him a bad kid.(This message has been edited by Lynda J)

[dancinfox]

I think we all have to realize something. What the Scout did was at the National Jamboree, not in his home troop. The Jamboree Scoutmaster gave his the punishment he thought was right. It's water over the dam. In our peinal system when a criminal does his time, then that crime is not to be held against him. What the Scout did was wrong, but he was punished and served his time. The home troop should let it go. Maybe the Scoutmaster should have a talk with him, but that would be up to the Scoutmaster and should be between the Scoutmaster and the Scout.

Dancin

[Hunt]

The more I think about this, the more I think that the reactions to what this scout did are just too muted. I mean, he stole from another scout, and the only punishment was giving up his ill-gotten gains and ONE DAY of restriction. If he had stolen those patches from a store and been caught, the consequences would have been much different. To me, it should take some time and some doing before this scout could earn the trust of the troop and its leaders again. You can call this a mistake or a bad choice all you want, but it is a whole different order from other kinds of misbehaviors, or even other crimes--there was a victim here, a brother Scout. In my opinion, this scout should have no position of responsibility until his words and actions over a substantial period of time (six months?) show that he can be trusted.

[pjzedalis]

I think this is crazy.

 

Clearly the Scout was punished (and multiple people agreed to it's severity) at the Jamboree. The home troop should not have anything to do with this other than to be notified that it occured.

 

Your discussions on this Scout being on the "Dark Side" from time to time... well we all are. I am an Eagle Scout, and I can surely tell you that I don't always fall the Scout Oath/Law. It's a judgement call, and I'm proud of who I am and my Eagle Scout. I worked my ass off for it.

 

So here's a young man who has some disturbing theories on what is "morally right" but clearly has some exceptional leadership abilities. This sounds like a young man who needs a hero/mentor. The Scoutmaster should not only keep him on as the SPL, but he should grant this young man more opportunities to excel. I find with my peers and myself that bad behavior or misguided decisions are often only done when they/I am bored.

 

Now I'm not saying that the Jamboree was boring so he decided to steal patches... but stealing a few patches is minor compared to alot of worse things he could have done. So you might want to review the real root of the problem, and help guide him to the "Good side."

 

I couldn't think of a better program for troubled youth... yet many of the parents in Scouting expect every Scout to be an Eagle Scout upon joining... and they just aren't. You learn alot on the path... and SPL is just a short term position... Guide this young man on the appropriate path and give him incentive to excel... and watch him grow.

 

Don't turn a blind eye towards him and punish him.

 

Phillip

[Hunt]

I'm experiencing some cognitive dissonance here, because I find myself on opposite sides of two somewhat similar discussions. In this one, I think a scout's wrong actions (stealing) definitely should affect his standing with the troop, while in the other I'm not sure his wrong actions (occasional underage drinking) should hold him back. To me, stealing from a fellow Scout is a MUCH bigger deal than having a couple of beers. I simply can't agree that stealing is "minor" or that it's a "misguided decision." ("Minor" crimes are things like jaywalking, and "misguided decisions" are things like canoeing without a PFT. Stealing is of another order, both legally and (in my opinion) morally.)

Furthermore, although I think this Scout's "punishment" was laughably mild, the desire for further punishment is not the reason I would not want him to continue as SPL. The reason is that he has graphically shown that he lacks, at least at present, the trustworthiness necessary to have a position of responsibility over other boys. I'm not sure what the mechanism is for removing him (or even if there is one)--I think it shows a lot of nerve for him even to think he should continue to "lead" as if nothing has happened.

[krpound]

As an ASM in this Scout's home troop and a Committee Member of his Jamboree troop, it's time to chime in.

 

Absolutely, positively, what this Scout (and the others involved) did was wrong. Period. It violated a slew of Scouting tenets and at least one criminal statute. But it was handled by the 4 SMs and PLC then and there. Regardless of what the home troop Committee thinks of the boy, it's over. It is up to his home troop SM to determine if he is still Trustworthy enough to do the job to which he was elected by his peers, and if his leadership potential can be properly channeled to the Good Side. What does the SM think of his SPL's job performance so far? Do the boys in the troop view the problem in the same light as the parents? They are the ones he's leading.

 

If this Scout is penalized, then all those involved should also be penalized.

 

In talking to security staff while working at Jambo, I found that patch stealing was rampant. This Scout had patches stolen from him, and was very upset, so it completely boggles my mind why he would turn around and do the same thing three days later. By the way, the patches he forfeited, of which 99% were legitimately acquired, were probably worth close to 800 dollars. That begs the question of what have we wrought with Scout patches that we can incite such a frenzy surrounding their acquistion? For two weeks I watched boys spend their days trading patches rather than take advantage of Jamboree activities!

 

Let's also not forget that we are talking about adolescent boys who as a rule make bad decisions daily. Our job as Scouters is to guide them through these years and teach them to make right choices. It's why we volunteer one hour a week.

 

"An individual step in character training is to put responsibility on the individual."

 

"Correcting bad habits cannot be done by forbidding or punishment."

 

--Robert Baden-Powell

 

YIS,

kp

 

[evmori]

I need some clarification.

 

Is this the 1st incident this Scout has been involved in or is this just the latest in a long list of incidents this Scout has been involved in?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10