Push Ups

[Eagledad]

>>In the world of testosterone laden men, doing push-ups on command is a power issue.

[scouter-mom]

At first reading (I've been following this post for a week), I thought perhaps my gut reaction was because I am a mom. (I am against using push-ups as punishment or as a consequence for unwanted behavior).

 

I think that push-ups as part of a PT program is fine. Push-ups used as stated in the original post (punishment, consequence, coercion) are poorly used. It is a use of power.

 

Many youth do not have the leadership skills and intra- and inter-personal skills to lead without using the power issue. If we have adult leaders in that same boat, I would hope that they would recognize this and get some training and feedback.

 

"Drop and give me 10" (or whatever) is perfectly fine in boot camp (I am a military brat). It's not okay in the civilian world.

 

The use of "Love and Logic" methods is awesome. It takes time and practice and a great desire to learn to use them, but they work, without humiliation, without put downs, without yelling or any form of intimidation.

 

I have had my sons with leaders who used intimidation, and we left that unit. We have

usually had terrific leaders who did not need to use the issue of power with the scouts. If a scout shows that he doesn't want to participate, then what a bummer for him, he doesn't participate at that time.

 

If timeliness is considered a behavorial problem, and if the scout is driven by an adult to the meeting, then possibly the tardiness is an adult issue (refering to "punishing" late arrival to a troop meeting).

 

With uniforming, positive consquences for those in full, correct uniform usually works best. It also helps to see if there are other factors involved. Those factors might include fit, comfort and who is setting what example. I recently was having an issue with my youngest (16 year old) son in regards to wearing uniform scout pants (our troop is a "waist up" uniformed unit, our OA Lodge is "full uniform"). I found opportunities where he wanted to be in full uniform (and made sure he saw what a difference it made in that situation), and also purchased a larger size (more comfortable, that 34" waistband was getting a bit snug, but he wouldn't acknowleged that).

 

If a scouting leader (adult or youth) does use the push-ups as "motivation"/consequence, then the leader performing them at the same time does lighten the "humiliation" factor.

 

When I think of all the times I have been taught or led (in or out of scouts): I learned best when I wanted to participate fully and successfully. This occurred when humiliation, being singled out, and intimidation/power tactics were NOT used.

 

A powerful, motivating leader (male or female) inspires me and models the behavior and action that I thereby choose to follow. I have always felt this way, as a youth, and now as an adult.

 

I wonder what would happen if at Council and District meetings if we members had to drop and perform push-ups for any and all construed lack of results, follow-through, missed meetings, lack of uniform,late arrivals, etc? Or, if giving the wrong answer or not being prepared in class at Philmont (or Wood Badge, or ?) resulted in being handed out push-ups (or something similar). I would not be a member of any of those classes or committees.

 

We, as adults, set the example. We help the youth leaders set the example. I choose to not set the example of using push-ups as a consequence.

[SeattlePioneer]

Sorry, but power is an inescapable part of life and Boy Scouts.

 

Scouts and Scouters don't decide the Scout Law for themselves, the choices are made for us by people with the authority to do so --- the power to do so.

 

similarly for the uniform, the Scoutmaster and many other elements of Scouting. Scouting is not about how to eliminate power, but about learning to use power wisely.

 

In my view, the issue here is whether disagreeable forms of punishment such as pushups or kybo cleaning ever be a useful way to deal with a problem in Scouting, and whether such punishments are permitted under Scouting rules.

 

I continue to suggest that I see no clear rule that prohibits such punishments, although they are not recommended in training either.

 

So I'd continue to suggest that they may be used by Scout units if the leaders think it is wise, appropriate or necessary to do so.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[madkins007]

So what do we think so far overall?

 

Most forms of discipline involve some form of power, which is not automatically a bad thing when not abused or misused.

 

Actions do and should have consequences. Natural consequences are better, but artifical consequences work.

 

Flogging is unacceptable.

 

Push-ups seem to fall in a grey area where some think they definately qualify as hazing, coporal punishment, etc., but others do not.

 

Push-ups and similar punishments are rarely seen outside the military, sports, and some Scout units for behavior correction.

 

Push-ups do not seem to be clearly and unambiguously addressed in Scouting (unless you are of the camp that sees it as corporal punishment).

 

 

 

Just FYI- here is a quickie article about punishments in schools... http://www.nospank.net/n-k42.htm

 

 

And just to toss another log in the fire, this article specifically identifies push-ups as corporal punishmnet as defined by the Calif. State Attorney General... http://www.pesoftware.com/Resources/exercise.html

[FScouter]

"I wonder what would happen if at Council and District meetings if we members had to drop and perform push-ups for any and all construed lack of results, follow-through, missed meetings, lack of uniform,late arrivals, etc?"

 

Great object lesson.

[evmori]

"I wonder what would happen if at Council and District meetings if we members had to drop and perform push-ups for any and all construed lack of results, follow-through, missed meetings, lack of uniform,late arrivals, etc?"

 

Great object lesson.

 

Bet they wouldn't show up for the next meeting late or out of uniform or at all! And maybe that would be a good thing.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

"I continue to suggest that I see no clear rule that prohibits such punishments, although they are not recommended in training either."

 

In thinking about this further, I come to the conclusion that punishments like pushups, because of their tendency to be humiliating and to reflect the exertion of power, directly violate the Scout Law, because they are unkind. Also, because they do not teach the proper lessons, they are unhelpful.

 

I'm a little more on the fence about work details as punishment/consequences, because I can see situations where these might be a natural outgrowth of the type of infraction ("Johnny, since you seem to have so much extra time that you can play with your knife like that, why don't you take a few minutes to....") I'm still concerned that turning work into a punishment sends the wrong message about work.

[Eagledad]

>>I'm still concerned that turning work into a punishment sends the wrong message about work.

[Hunt]

I think the nighttime hike was a good example of a consequence that flows from the infraction. I can imagine that you said, "Since you guys seem to be having trouble sleeping, let's use the time productively and go on an night hike."

[madkins007]

EagleDad-

 

I'm with Hunt. I like the hike. It was not strenuous, or accompanied by browbeating/yelling, etc. It gav the Scouts a chance to burn off some excess energy and learn something new. Combined with reflection, I'd say it was an A+ job!

[madkins007]

So... IF we (the BSA) would decide against push-ups, what other forms of consequence could we come up with for lateness, uniforms, and similar infractions?

 

My first thought is a cleaning detail after the meeting- but this is also a job that needs to be done if there are any infractions or not so might be best suited to patrol rotation.

 

Extra cleaning jobs 'above and beyond' like mopping would be nice- not too dificult, and great PR that the place is extra clean sometimes.

 

You could always keep a 'job list' at hand of things that can be done by those needing 'something to do', perhaps during a game, etc. Washing out some old Dutch ovens, inventory of MB books, etc.

 

Exclusion from certain activities- flag ceremonys, some games, gathering activities, etc. is always an option- but not always a strong consequence.

 

Reversing the program and rewarding timliness and uniforming is an option as well- points for uniforms and being on time, with points being redeemable for something later can work as well. I personally prefer rewarding good behavior to punishing bad, but both have thir place!

[madkins007]

"""I wonder what would happen if at Council and District meetings if we members had to drop and perform push-ups for any and all construed lack of results, follow-through, missed meetings, lack of uniform,late arrivals, etc?"

 

Great object lesson.

 

Bet they wouldn't show up for the next meeting late or out of uniform or at all! And maybe that would be a good thing. ""

 

Its the 'or not at all' part that worrys me! I can't think of a lot of Scouters I have worked with and respected that would put up with that (beyond a superficial degree- you know, like as a gag, etc.)

[SeattlePioneer]

When George Patton slapped a soldier during WWII, he was required by Dwight Eisenhower to publically apologize to the soldier involved, and to the units that were involved as well.

 

Patton was punished for other foolish behavior during the course of the war.

 

British Field Marshal Montgomery was nearly removed from command because of his opposition to orders from Eisenhower, and wound up giving a rather abject apology and promise of future good behavior.

 

Eisenhower cashiered a Major General and sent him home a Major because of foolish comments made in a restaurant that could have compromised the Security of the invaision of France.

 

General MacArthur was relieved of command in Korea because of his insubordination to President Harry Truman.

 

Just a guess, but I'd suppose that any of these men would have prferred doing a few pushups to the punishment they received.

 

Scouters make mistakes and errors, but good ones try to recognize those mistakes, apologize for them and aim for future improvement. Those who persist in bad behaviors are probably not going to be asked to do pushups, but will be removed from positions of responsibility in Scouting in various ways.

 

I think it's bogus to say that Scouters and adults generally are excused from punishment for bad behavior. Pushups may not be the methods used to encourage compliance with social norms, but the punishments are often quite real.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[sitrep]

Seattle:

 

I'm still waiting for you to answer the question someone previous put to you asking when push ups become oppressive. But then again weren't you the one that thought it acceptable to throw the scout's hot dog in the fire? I've seen SM and other adults that bully the kids and treat them like they are in the military and I have no tolerence for that.

 

I don't always have time to change into my uniform before a meeting or distrcit round table. I would like to see someone tell me to do push ups for that.

 

[Zahnada]

Actually, Seattle, I disagree with some of what you said in your last post. Now, I don't know anything about the major general who became a major, but I tend to believe that Patton and MacArthur would never allow someone to command them to perform pushups. Where would these pushups be held? In a private room with just Ike and Truman? Well, we certainly can't do private punishments of this nature in scouting. Would it then be in public on display in front of Patton and MacArthur's men? They would NEVER allow themselves to be demeaned in such a way. Even if it meant they would have to sit out the rest of the war.

 

From what I know of both men, they would rather be fired and henceforth martyred than do pushups for their actions.

 

And also remember, scouting is not the military.